Men Without Chests August 31, 2006
Posted by Retired Geezer in Terrorist Hemorrhoids.trackback
Something keeps telling me to post this. It could be because I’m a big C.S. Lewis fan. Nevertheless it seems very timely.
First a quote by Mr. Lewis: (H/T to HayZeus for finding it for me).
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise.
We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.
We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful.”
I received this column from David Warren via email:
…The case of the two Fox News journalists, held hostage in Gaza, is worth dwelling upon. They were released after their captors had made tapes of them dressed as Arabs and announcing they had changed their names and converted to Islam.
Lately I have been looking at the large — at how the West is proving unable to cope with a threat from a fanatical Islamic movement, that it ought to be able to snuff out with fair ease… But the large is often most visible in the small.
It’s a pretty good diagnosis of the reasons why the terrorists made the journalists convert to Islam.
Why did Fatah bother to make the video? Didn’t they realize conversion under duress means nothing? That no one, East or West, would take it at face value?
They didn’t make it for face value. They made it to show the whole Muslim world, via satellite television, what wimps these Westerners are. That they’ll do anything at all to save their lives, that they don’t think twice about it. That is the substance of most Islamo-fascist propaganda: that the West consists of straw men, of men without chests, of men easily pushed over…
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Innocent Bystanders 
I am late coming to Lewis, but I’ve been reading a lot of him lately. I almost bought “The Pilgrim’s Regress” yesterday because it looked fascinating.
On another note, I just posted an article over at Ace’s that relates to this in a peripheral way. Boys are being feminized in our schools, really for several generations now. It breeds contempt in our enemies because we act contemptably.
Good post, RG. That David Warren fellow hit it on the head – the West is no longer willing to die for principles or values, while the Muslim world is. Fortunately we’re still willing to kill for principles and values.
[…] Hat tip: Geezer at Innocent Bystanders, who also quotes C.S. Lewis. […]
Gotta do my obligatory acknowledgement of *my* favorite C.S. Lewis book, The Great Divorce.
Well, one of my favorite books of his.
My 15 year old son will be reading Warren’s article. And I need to dig out the Lewis. Thanks Geezer.
After the Centanni/Wiig release, I was going to post this question to the atheists: Would it bother you that you were forced into a Muslim conversion?
Since it’s just meaningless words for just another meaningless religion, would an atheist care about being forced into a phony gesture of new faith? I suspect that the answer is no, it won’t bother the atheist.
Bart, I suspect that it would for the people who are sincerely atheists. Thinking would be: If it’s all meaningless, then the only meaning is that which we as humanity assign to things by our values and actions thereby. There would be no consequences in terms of eternity for an atheist, but there would in the here and now.
I was a little angry that Greta didn’t cover this bit of it in her otherwise excellent interview with Cestanni and Wiig.
Would it bother you that you were forced into a Muslim conversion?
I don’t think the religious aspect would bother me. The civil liberties problems would be much more troubling.
As far as I know, they don’t bother to convert athiests anyway.
“I suspect that the answer is no, it won’t bother the atheist.”
You are wrong Bart. The offense comes from having a belief imposed on you, not what the belief is. The “conversion” was a pure power move designed to humiliate and emasculate, how would that not bother the person on the receiving end no matter what their beliefs are?
You really are consistent in your tendency to attribute negative personal characteristics (lack of honor, cowardice, etc) to those whose political and religious beliefs are not sufficiently close to yours.
I disagree that the ‘conversion’ was a power move because humiliating the individuals was not the purpose. It was a propaganda move as pointed out in the article. That said, I disagree with the premise that somehow these two individuals were cowards whatever their religion or lack thereof. Its one thing to die for your beliefs but its another to die for a propaganda piece. This is not like Christian martyrs in Rome who would not deny their God because they knew they’d have to live with that for the rest of their lives. These folks new they could say something to secure their freedom and go right on living their faith the way they wanted to, phony profession of faith or not.
new = knew. Doh!
Wait a minute, if Centanni was murdered for refusing to convert from Christianity ot Islam, he would not die a martyr?
Martyr: a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
“These folks knew they could say something . . . .”
That’s true, Brew, but making your mouth say the words that you deny your faith is an awfully heavy something. I’ve thought about this a bit. What do I owe God? What do I owe my family? How much faith do I really have? Even as a charade of a propaganda stunt, that’s a rotten, rotten thing to do to someone.
Moreover, skinbad, a Christian has to seriously weigh his/her options:
Should I deny my God, my faith, for a false god in order to prolong my Eartly existence?
It comes down to a test of faith. Actually, more. It’s a test of faith and a test of love for God.
The test of faith is the choice to deny God for a false moon god.
The test of love for God is the choice to put more value in one’s Earthly, superficial life than in one’s eternal life with God.
What’s the passage? “Be not of the World” ??
I’m not defending the terrorists here. I’m defending the two newsmen. Let me put it this way. If a dude is holding a sword to my neck and saying he will saw it off unless I convert, I’m ‘converting’. It would be a lie, not a conversion, because the next day I could say so and publicly profess my true faith. If the circumstance is denying Christ for the rest of my life then I’m making a stand.
I think HayZeus and Michael dealt with the whole conversion issue well, as far as the Christian perspective is concerned. At least I think so. It’s a somewhat confusing issue. And it’s an issue that confuses me – and one that is, to a very, ver slight degree, affects me personally. Do I continue hiding my faith? Do I follow it openly and risk what consequences would come upon me and my family therefrom? *shrug*
I don’t know. I don’t think (I said, I don’t think) I would give up my wallet to save my life, nevermind my Christianity.
Brewf, following your logic, while in prison, if a dude held a knife to your throat and gave you the option of bj or death, you would choose bj because you really wouldn’t be doing anything wrong.
BrewFan –
1) I agree the main goal was propaganda, but the image they were selling is that of Muslims as dominant and the Westerners (and by extension all of the West) weak. You don’t consider that a power move? Let me show you how I can make these dogs rollover for me.
2) I don’t think they are cowards anymore then American POW’s who sign ridiculous “confessions” as the result of torture.
3) skinbad – We agree that it’s a rotten thing to have to mouth words you don’t believe and deny beliefs that are important to you. But there’s a diference between going through a brief farce that saves your life, and having to live a lifetime of hiding your true beliefs. In the second case I see more grounds for questioning one’s faith and self-respect.
One of the SAS guys that was captured and abused in Gulf War I had a great attitude. He was beaten,humiliated, literly made to lick shit off the ground, etc. He said he didn’t really think about it because he had to go on and live his life, what’s in the past is in the past, etc. But if he ever saw one of the guys who did it walking down the street they better run.
If someone is threatening your life, you should not be held accountable for what you do as you’re being threatened from playing nice with the captors or killing them in a blood sword fight to the death. Using the word “conversion” in this case is hardly appropriate. This has the connotation of some sort of denial of one’s religion or even of one’s atheism. This is inappropriate, and the journalists should do whatever they think they need to do to stay alive. Period.
I’m a chick, and even though I can’t win in a hand-to-hand combat or a gunfight, I can charm and talk my damn way out of it by being nice or at least delay until the marines show up. I could GIVE a shit what other people think. I’ll play dress up if I get to see my family again.
I’ve been reading the Early Christian Fathers, and I think they would take serious issue with the idea that they could say something (without believing it) and then happily go back to their Christianity when the swords are put away.
Polycarp was in his 80s or 90s when he was led to the circus. The guards and the proconsul all said, “look, you’re way too old for this silliness. Just say ‘Hail Caesar,’ go home, and live the rest of your days in peace.” He wouldn’t do it — not for a single moment would he state anything contrary to his Christianity. They killed him for it.
Cyprian was probably in his 60s or so when he was killed. Before that, he led the church at Carthage for a decade, most of it in hiding, and dealing primarily with the issue of what to do with the “lapsed,” — those Christians who, under coercion and threat of death, had worshipped idols. Only for a moment, perhaps, but they were cast out of the Church, and re-admitted only after long and bitter repentance. Cyprian had to ex-communicate some of the presbyters who tried to get the lapsed back into fellowship to quickly.
Consider Peter, who thrice denied he knew Jesus. Consider the bitterness of soul, even though what he said was to protect his own life, under threat of death, even if it was for only a moment. He went on the rest of his life living as a Christian, but not before being gently but firmly rebuked by Christ Himself.
The Greek word “martyr” originally meant “witness,” someone who could testify as to what he had seen or heard. Because testifying of Christ became a virtually guaranteed death sentence, it later came to have the connotation of one who was killed for the faith. And what more powerful witness could Polycarp bear, and in what better way, than to show the screaming crowds that Christ was more important to him than his own life? I do not think Christianity could have spread as rapidly as it did, if the earliest witnesses had not been dragged before the masses to testify with their blood that they believed in Christ rather than Caesar.
Like Skinbad, I’ve been thinking about the forced conversions, and I must conclude that I would not say the words “muhammadan rasul Allah” no matter the threat.
“I’ll play dress up if I get to see my family again.”
Feisty, don’t take this the wrong way, as I don’t mean it as a criticism of your conclusions, but I don’t believe beheading will prevent a Christian from seeing his family again.
Brewf, following your logic, while in prison, if a dude held a knife to your throat and gave you the option of bj or death, you would choose bj because you really wouldn’t be doing anything wrong.
Of course I’d choose bj. What would be the point in not? Honor and survival are not mutually exclusive ideas.
Let me show you how I can make these dogs rollover for me.
I guess I’m a little naive but I really don’t think the entire Muslim world is buying into their ‘conversion’. Joe Mohammed in Pakistan is reading this stuff and thinking he’d do the exact same thing in their place. I said it was propaganda, I didn’t mean to imply it was effective propaganda. To me it smells like the kidnappers were desperate to do something to save face and they chose the fake conversion route.
Feisty, don’t take this the wrong way, as I don’t mean it as a criticism of your conclusions, but I don’t believe beheading will prevent a Christian from seeing his family again.
Obviously, that’s part of the Bible, but I’m someone who’d like to live as long as possible, thanks. I take it as a form of bravery that I’d be willing to do whatever it takes to save my life. Dress up with a gun to my head? You got it.
Would you go Amish if someone put a knife to your throat?
Sobek, I don’t think Polycarp is an apt comparison because I don’t believe he would have been allowed to ‘deny his denial’ as the two newsman will do. Your example of Peter is the better analogy. Peter stood out because of his bravado, but all the disciples abandoned Jesus. What was the result? Forgiveness, because that is what God offers everybody, even the weakest.
I guess I fall somewhere in the middle as I don’t feel like you can fault somebody for saying something that will have absolutely no meaning or consequences the next day. Evangelical Christians believe there is only one mortal sin and that’s the sin of unbelief. Once you’re saved, you’re always saved. If that’s not true, nobody will be in heaven.
What’s the passage? “Build your treasures in Heaven, not in the World.”
For the record, if I ever end up in prison, (and there is a distinct possibility I will), I will never ever engage in sodomy. I’d rather die, so I will fight to the death.
That doens’t mean I wouldn’t be flattered by the prospect.
I don’t deny it would be an unpleasant thing to do but I don’t think there are eternal consequences to doing it. If there are, at best I’d guess a loss of a ‘crown’.
Also, I don’t intend anything I said as a criticism of Wiig or Centanni.
I do not remember where I read it, but I remember a discussion in a novel or opinion piece regarding our military’s policy of POW’s resisting coercion. The author suggested that our policy should be changed to say anything, sign anything, and agree to any terms put in front of you by your captors. Look into the camera and wink and smile while you read their script.
Advertise this policy at all times, let everyone know this is what POW’s do, it’s the rules. By doing so, you remove the any propaganda value of all statements made by POW’s. Everyone knows the policy is to agree to whatever, and they are not doing so by their own free will, but under duress.
I guess I would fall into a “who does it hurt” discussion with myself. Giving up secrets that would get my fellow American’s killed, resist at all costs. Pointing in the air and pledging allegiance to big Mo, eh, so what? If God knows what’s in my heart, or I don’t believe in God or Allah, what’s it going to hurt to say the words with a gun to my head?
Isn’t SOP for Muslim’s to lie to infidels for Jihad? Right back at you there moon boy.
Brew, if Polycarp was already saved, and the doctrine of eternal security in effect, how could his denial of Christ to save his life have any effect? It would be meaningless, because he would already be saved, yes?
I don’t understand your meaning when you say “I don’t think Polycarp is an apt comparison because I don’t believe he would have been allowed to ‘deny his denial.’” Especially puzzling is your use of the passive voice: allowed by whom?
“Since it’s just meaningless words for just another meaningless religion, would an atheist care about being forced into a phony gesture of new faith?”
Words dont mean anything. Its whats in your heart that matters. I would say almost anything to survive if I thought that there was even the slightest chance that I could come back some day and kill them.
To quote the good book “Vengence is Mine, so sayeth the Lord” and thats all wll and good. Jesus can have you after your dead. When your on earth your ass is Amishs.
p.s. a question to the athiests in the audience: have you had to deal with a lot of BS every time you tell someone you dont believe in God? Have you stopped bringing it up? Have you ever told your family?
have you had to deal with a lot of BS every time you tell someone you dont believe in God?
I don’t usually talk about it.
Have you stopped bringing it up?
I don’t usually talk about it.
Have you ever told your family?
Not really. Just my wife.
Sobek,
My point about Polycarp is that if he denied Christ, he would be remaining in that society and it would be hard to for him to say, “I really didn’t mean it when I denied Christ” because if he did his persecutors would immediately kill him. In that circumstance I could see *myself* choosing the martyrdom route because I wouldn’t live my life denying Christ. I’m conflicted about all this because of Matt 10:33, but I tend to take that whole chapter as specific instructions for a specific task.
Ultimately, though, no matter what choice we make, if you are saved, there is nothing you can do or say to lose your salvation (see Romans 8:28) and that was my larger point.
Don’t be puzzled by what I say. I’m just not very eloquent. Usually if I hammer it out a few times it gets a little clearer 🙂
A question for Steve_in_hb:
Since you’re only half Jewish, does that mean you only control half of the world? Or does it mean the whole world, but you’re only halfway in control? Thanks in advance for the clarification.
So if Polycarp knew he was about to get shipped off to Persia, then he could have denied Christ to save his life, and been okay as soon as he got out of Asia Minor?
Amish, when you say ‘take a lot of crap’ what specifically are you talking about? People trying to dissuade you or persecute you? The former I would think an atheist would just shrug off (and recently I’ve learned that is not necessarily the case), the latter is a different matter of course.
Sobek, why am I getting the feeling I’m on the stand and an elaborate trap is being crafted by a wily attorney to catch me in some falsehood? I just admitted I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I can’t be any more clear then I was above. Do you feel one’s salvation is at risk in pretending to convert to Islam when held at gunpoint?
“Amish, when you say ‘take a lot of crap’ what specifically are you talking about?”
I mean do people start treating you like Bart treats people when he finds out theyre athiests? Like your different. Suspicious. They think your strange or weird. Maybe not that trustworthy. Do they act like they are better than you? Do they act like they think that you are a fool?
“Do you feel one’s salvation is at risk in pretending to convert to Islam when held at gunpoint?”
I don’t know. I honestly don’t pretend to have an answer for that. I do know this: I would say all kinds of crazy crap to protect my family. It seems like an untenable double standard, but there you go.
And I suppose my questions were cross-examination-y. Old habit.
You people are overthinking.
Well, Sobek and Brew are overthinking. Anyone who doesn’t value their life enough to be sodomized or play dress up to keep it going in the face of imminent death probably doesn’t deserve to live or needs a psychiatrist and an anti-depressant.
“Anyone who doesn’t value their life enough to be sodomized or play dress up to keep it going in the face of imminent death probably doesn’t deserve to live or needs a psychiatrist and an anti-depressant. ”
If that was the case then God wouldnt have any martyrs.
Thanks for the insight. Speaking strictly for myself I try to respect everybody’s belief and I expect everybody to respect by belief. I think an atheist can be as moral as me because all of the atheists that I’ve met respect the rule of law. I try not to act like I’m better then anybody else but I have had some atheists tell me that I do act that way. I think the reason for that though is that if I believe I’m going to heaven and you’re not then that would be the conclusion somebody could reach. The fact is, I’m going to heaven not on the strength of anything I did but soley because of Christ’s atoning work on the cross. So I’m not better then anyone. Quite the contrary.
“If that was the case then God wouldnt have any martyrs.”
And his son would have lived to a ripe old age and retired to Florida.
yeah. I just quoted myself. Sue me.
God wouldnt have any martyrs.
You don’t think suicide bombers need an anti-depressant and a psychiatrist?
If Bart gets kidnapped and is forced to wear a turban and read a pro-Muslim statement or be shot and he refuses due to being a Christian, that’s called suicide-by-terrorist.
Fiesty, I think we’re on the same page. There are some things worth dying for but nothing I can think of worth committing suicide for.
I’m an atheist, but remember we’re talking about people in general and FoxNews journalists, not the son of God, Amish. The average person with a gun to his head doesn’t have time to think about obscure Biblical stories…he thinks in that split-second, “Do I want to live or do I want to die?” If the answer is “I want to die”, then you’re suicidal or a wimp and don’t want to do what it takes to survive. If the answer is “I want to live”, then you may have to degrade yourself compared to what you’d do on a usual day, but you wouldn’t be dead, you see.
You don’t think suicide bombers need an anti-depressant and a psychiatrist?
Not that kind of martyr. This kind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian
Though I wouldnt expect an unclean woman such as yourself to know who im talking about.
I”m unclean, but at least I can distinguish between a saint, a martyr, and a FoxNews journalist for the purposes of discussion.
If you’re all alone in Siberia with skis and nothing else, do you want to be the guy who braves the elements, cutting off his frostbitten toes to prevent lethal gangrene as he skis to safety despite all odds, or do you want to be the guy who gives up and freezes to death?
Take the same story and change it to “if you were put in Siberia for being a Christian and have skis and nothing else….” Technically, if you gave up and said you were dying for God, you could call yourself a martyr, right? Does this make you better than the guy who skis to safety?
I just don’t have it in me to read all of the comments tonight. Great discussion.
My father was a two time “volunteer” in Vietnam. On his first tour, he was charged with guarding, helping, and leveraging a Vietnamese Catholic Priest. This guy was regulalrly persecuted, hunted (I mean literally), and chased from village to village for his faith. Communism, of course, cannot brook any other faith than that for the state.
My father said that this priest was one of the bravest souls that he’d met, and yet when you’d ask him about it, it was all very matter of fact. He was fighting, and could die, for something that was much bigger than him. Ho Hum. In the meantime, this fellow took extreme risks to play robin hood, help my father, cache weapons for the sv, and so on.
He saw it as part of his faith to help the S Vietnamese to fight and defend their homeland, but that was his way of fighting back.
It’s very easy to say that you’d say the words and revert once the swords are put away. But men live for things that are bigger than themselves. If they can’t see anything bigger, they willingly die. As long as we are fighting for something bigger, we will use every trick in the book to stay alive. When it’s the end of the road, that’s it.
I’m not about to judge Centanni and Whig. They had to do what they had to do. But I am confronted with the visions of “what if that were me.” And I am filled with sorrow. Faith is a harsh mistress, and she should never be underestimated.
“The average person with a gun to his head doesn’t have time to think about obscure Biblical stories”
Then they arent very good christians if they dont immediatly turn to God in their hour of need, no?
What is the moral of the story of Simon Peter denying knowing Christ? Im pretty sure it wasnt a guidebook of what to when your faith is tested. God Does Not Placate. There are no do overs. He expects you to die for him when the time comes.
Did John the Baptist renounce God? Did Stephen? No.
Faith doesnt work that way. Either the Bible is the truth or it isnt. You cant pick and choose which commandments you want to follow and you cant draw up your own roadmap to salvation.
You cant break Gods Laws and then just say “Im sure God will understand.” or “I’ll make it up to him later.”
What if there is no later?
Can a missionary who serves in a less-then-safe area and loses their life in service to God be called a martyr? I say yes, fully realizing Fiesty and I may no longer be on the same page.
Either the Bible is the truth or it isnt.
[Runs away from stones being cast at her]
I hate literalists; now I’m going to have to go to the ER with another head injury.
What is the moral of the story of Simon Peter denying knowing Christ?
The moral is Jesus knows us better then we know ourselves.
Good night you knuckleheads.
I hate literalists
The feeling is not mutual.
“if you were put in Siberia for being a Christian and have skis and nothing else….”
I’m not talking about giving up. I’m not even saying I wouldn’t fight the guys who want to cut off my head, even if it meant killing them (I can’t say I’d lose any sleep over that at all). Our Siberian Christian should use the skis and any other means to save his life. Just not at the expense of renouning his faith. I’m saying that if it’s a choice between renouning God and renouncing my life, I know which one I choose.
And Feisty, the whole point of the throwing stones at prostitutes story is that no one threw anything.
God, this is a great group. You jack asses all deserve gold plaited diapers and a bottle of The MacAllan.
Or what’s left of it.
Seriously.
Your example would be a martyr, Brewfan. If the martyr knowingly ran in the middle of a minefield to teach about Jesus and died, he or she is just a complete idiot though. I don’t think people who exhibit a lack of common sense should be elevated to anything significant.
Brewfan, get your rocks ready for Dave in TX’s pool party. If you don’t stone me to death, you’re not following the Bible. No secular laws or compassion should trump the word of God!
And Feisty, the whole point of the throwing stones at prostitutes story is that no one threw anything.
From way back when I was 15 and in Lutheran confirmation class, I remember some discussion of pelting generic women with stones who are not a virgin when they are married? Deuteronomy maybe?
“I hate literalists”
Holy shit i think your on to something. I just found a lost verse in the book of Revelation:
Revelation Book 22
verse 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
verse 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
verse 23 Just Kiddin’! Had ya goin there with that whole ‘death and hell’ thing didnt I? You should have seen the look on Judas’ face – priceless! Anyways… you crazy kids go ahead and do whatever ya want…I dont care.
Take her easy,
Big G
“The moral is Jesus knows us better then we know ourselves.”
If that was the moral Jesus would have just told Simon Peter what he was going to have for lunch next Thursday A.D.
A fish sandwich – again.
Amish, wtf?
Your ballbusting skillz are superior to mine…tonight. But I’ll get you back, Amish.
Just not at the expense of renouning his faith.
Come on, Sobek, playing pretend isn’t renouncing one’s faith. You are so freakin’ obtuse. I’m sure you opted out of your high school’s production of Fiddler on the Roof when you learned you’d have to play a Jew.
When I’m a confirmed Lutheran and I repeatedly declare myself to be an atheist under no duress and no longer follow Lutheran teachings, I’m renouncing my religion. Do you see the difference? Or are you going to continue to be this obtuse? I find it highly offensive that you’re being critical of two people in a shitty situation for choosing LIFE over DEATH.
It’s hard to ballbust an atheist with a Bible verse, just so you know.
“I find it highly offensive that you’re being critical of two people in a shitty situation for choosing LIFE over DEATH.”
But they arent. They are choosing LIFE over GOD.
Feisty, renouncing is renouncing. You underestimate the reality of having to say the words and doing the deed.
Christian Martyrs not only died for their faith – they usually died in violent, difficult, horrible struggle. Running into a mine field may or may not apply. Generally, pursuing one’s faith goes beyond prosletyzing.
Amish,
Remember what I said about suicide? I thought suicide was wrong in Christianity too. Suicide-by-terrorist if you don’t do what they say; it’s not like terrorists are known for being merciful to people who don’t do what they say. The only good solution is to play pretend, the equivalent of being in Fiddler on the Roof for a couple of minutes, and live….unless you think every high school Christian kid in a play about Jews has renounced their religion; if so, you’re simply insane and you need to stop hanging here and check yourself into the nearest hospital.
p.s. a question to the athiests in the audience: have you had to deal with a lot of BS every time you tell someone you dont believe in God? Have you stopped bringing it up? Have you ever told your family?
I told my mother, and she nearly wept. Didn’t mean it to go that way. I don’t think she really believes me, anyway. She has never brought it up since. She used to soothe my nightmares when I was a child by having me recite the Our Father. It always worked, too.
I told my little brother the Marine (not so little anymore), and asked him to keep it under his hat. So now EVERYBODY knows. Fucking guy.
Last time I was over at the house, Laura’s atheism turned into a dining room Round Table discussion over Portuguese food.
Nobody can figure out how I restrain myself from eating babies and robbing blind people.
It is difficult, especially when I see a really fat baby, but I just say to myself, “Mind over Matter, Mind over Matter…”
A kidnapped journalist, for the last f’n’ time, isn’t a martyr…that’s a victim of kidnapping…a crime, you see. If the kidnapper wants to make the thing a religious thing, that’s their frickin’ problem, not yours.
I’m still shocked at how unreasonable and how uncaring you are towards these people. This is part of the reason I ‘renounced’, by the way. You sit here in an office and tell people they should DIE rather than say a few sentences they don’t believe to stay alive. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Tell this stuff to their fathers and mothers; I’m sure you’ll go over well with them.
“if so, you’re simply insane and you need to stop hanging here and check yourself into the nearest hospital”
You wound me.
But I forgive you.
Forgiveness – you should look into it…
Sinner!
Laura, you’re a better woman than I am; I eat a baby-a-week. Tastes like veal. There ain’t no God to get between me and my dinner!
Well, let’s take it the other way. Have you ever seen a deeply religious person who has had to deal with the consequences of renouncing or denouncing their faith, or having had to commit a deeply sacreligious act?
You act as if it’s like taking off dirty underwear. It’s not.
But ah well. You get it or you don’t. But it seems to me that you’re being quicker to jump to conclusions than Amish, or anyone else. And so be it.
“You sit here in an office and tell people they should DIE rather than say a few sentences they don’t believe to stay alive.”
Did you just call me a Chicken-Dove?
“Last time I was over at the house, Laura’s atheism turned into a dining room Round Table discussion over Portuguese food.
Nobody can figure out how I restrain myself from eating babies ”
Thats terrible.
p.s. Im pretty sure God hates babies Laura. At least my god does.
Did I mention that I worship Baal? No? Sort of like being a methodist, except a little more respectable.
p.p.s. anymore athiests out there that will answer my questions?
Baal
You stay seated during the service, right? Much better than those pesky Presbyterians, always jumping up and down. It’s like Calisthenics …
When I’m a confirmed Lutheran and I repeatedly declare myself to be an atheist under no duress and no longer follow Lutheran teachings, I’m renouncing my religion.
Feisty’s a Lutheran?
Dang, I knew there was something special about that girl!
keep reading, Butters, I renounced.
There’s reformation and then there’s _reformation_.
“I’m sure you opted out of your high school’s production of Fiddler on the Roof when you learned you’d have to play a Jew.”
Actually, I never got a chance to opt out because I never got cast. The theater teacher had it in for me ever since I shaved my head (bic bald, baby!) a few weeks before a play I was in (the play was cancelled, BTW).
But let’s suppose I had been cast in Fiddler. I would not have dropped out after reading enough of the script to figure out it’s about Jews, because a play is a very different thing from renouning your religion at gun point. I think your analogy is off, because the play exists for the purpose of entertainment and/or instruction. No one is pointing a gun at me on the stage (well, depending on how badly I suck, I suppose), no one is trying to get me to renounce my most sincerely-held beliefs or face death. In the hostage situation, the Muslim psychos actually want me to renounce Christ. I will not do it. Not even if I’ve got my fingers crossed and I can say “fooled you” afterwards.
And please don’t claim I’m condemning Centanni or Wiig. I’m not. I hope you’ll take me at my word when I said in comment 30: “I don’t intend anything I said as a criticism of Wiig or Centanni.” That goes for BrewFan, as well, or you, or anyone, really. I make my decisions for myself, not for others. I can’t pretend to know what Centanni or Wiig went through, nor do I want to do such a thing.
LauraW, for a second there I thought you were about to deny that you eat babies. I would have lost all respect for you.
Amish, Baal’s a pansy who deserves to get worshipped less than I do. I at least devoured those who refused to submit to my indomitable will and wore all kinds of crazy bling.
All Baal ever did was get humiliated by Yahweh. Over and over again. And I might add, he whines like a bitch.
I’ll tell you who doesn’t get the props he deserves: Thor. Man could drain a keg like no one’s business, and when you’ve got a guy who controls lighting blasted out of his mind on grog … good times, man. Good times.
On the one hand, I am renouncing the God of Abraham and my fathers.
On the other hand, dumbasses aren’t sawing my head off.
oh if I were a rich man, baya-badda-badda-badda-baya-badda bahm
Dang, I should have posted this at Ace.
Just kidding, Michael.
I know where my loyalties lie.
Thor? yeah right. I’ll stick with my own god thank you very much.
Passing the collection plate? Sure. Long Boring Sermon? No problem. Symbolic devouring of Christs body? Count.Me.In.
Smiting an army of Frost Giants in order to prove worthy of Valhalla?
Fraid Not.
Besides – You ever try to tell your boss that you need to take Thursday off to do the Lords work? It aint happenin’ chico.
I’m just saying he’s a great guy to hang out with. Or he was, back in the day. Now he looks like he’s ready for Rocky VI.
I heard Thor was teh Gay … stuck in Loki again.
“a question to the athiests in the audience: have you had to deal with a lot of BS every time you tell someone you dont believe in God? Have you stopped bringing it up? Have you ever told your family?”
The only time I have to deal with bs concerning athiesm is here – and I’m not kidding. The only time I bring it up is here, because some people say some insulting and narrow minded things that piss me off. Other than here, it’s simply not a big deal. I don’t know if I told my family or not – they are not religious people so God is not a topic of conversation. My dad wouldn’t give a shit and my mom probably wishes I was more “Jewish” but in a cultural tradition way rather than religious way.
“A question for Steve_in_hb:
Since you’re only half Jewish, does that mean you only control half of the world? Or does it mean the whole world, but you’re only halfway in control? Thanks in advance for the clarification.”
I’m like the cousin that is included in the family business but no one really trusts to be competent. While others run the international banking system, I was given control of the door knob industry in Poughkeepsie.
I was given control of the door knob industry in Poughkeepsie.
The entire Poughkeepsi door knob industry? Luckeee…
“I was given control of the door knob industry in Poughkeepsie.”
Did you meet Ace while he was working in the “polishing” division?
Ace actually works in the trailer hitch division – as in sucking the chrome off.
I’m more or less with you, Festy.
I pray that I’d be brave enough to stick to my principles and die a noble death if I had to, if I were ever in their position. But from the little experience I’ve had with danger, I know it’s pretty easy to talk brave when you’re not staring a real threat in the face, and a good deal harder to actually be brave, particularly when you are sure you are going to get hurt badly. And I know from human history that most people would do what these guys did. I hope I’d do better, but I’m not sure that I would.
I’d be the first to applaud somebody braver than these guys (e.g. virtually all the apostles), but I don’t like the tone this article took towards them, either.
It would be meaningless, because he would already be saved, yes?
No.
Another thought re: “suicide by terrorist.” I mentioned the story of Polycarp, but omitted the part before he was captured by the Romans. He did not surrender himself to the authorities, but fled from place to place until he was caught. He did not seek death, but nor did he resist it when the alternative was denying Christ.
Cyprian fled to the Lybian wastes to preserve his life. He was actually criticized for it, by members of the Church who thought he should have stayed in Carthage and gone to his death. He came back to Carthage when the heat was off. When the Decian persecution began, he decided not to flee again, but he still did not willingly surrender to the Romans.
Sandy said: “I know it’s pretty easy to talk brave when you’re not staring a real threat in the face, and a good deal harder to actually be brave, particularly when you are sure you are going to get hurt badly.”
Very true. I hope nothing I’ve written is mistaken as bluster, the braggadoccio of a guy in the comfort of his den. I’m talking about the principle of the thing, with the hope that if I were placed in such a position I would have the courage to stand up for my principles, regardless of the cost.
Sobek: Can you reccomend a book for me about the early church? I know absolutely nothing about it.
“Can you reccomend a book for me about the early church? I know absolutely nothing about it. ”
I can:
The Bible.
Its a pretty good book…THE good book actually.
Little preachy at times but still worth a read.
p.s. Good night folks. yall did a good job at aces. Thanks again for the ACDC.
Amish, I can’t claim to have read the Bible enough, but I’m trying. I was more interested in learning more about the history of the early church after the New Testament was written.
And I really do know how to spell wreckamend, I was just kidding around.
I wasn’t talking about any of you, Sobek. I just think some of the scorn in that otherwise interesting article was too much. It’s very hard to face torture, so those journalists deserve some compassion even if they did the wrong thing.
Bugler, I’ll think about your question and try to come up with something.
Seriously though, Acts is pretty cool.
Since I’m thinking about books, Anglewalk by Roger Elwood was excellent. My buddy (the Athiest) became a Christian after reading it.
Anglewalk = Angelwalk
I just read this whole thread. So, that sick f*ck Amish is actually an evangelical Christian, eh? Who would’ve thought…
Its always the bad boys.
If you don’t stone me to death, you’re not following the Bible.
I don’t live under the law Feisty, so you’re safe. That must have been one legalistic Lutheran church you went to. Even the Wisconsin synod gets the grace thing.
I just read this whole thread. So, that sick f*ck Amish is actually an evangelical Christian, eh? Who would’ve thought…
“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness,
Is like a villain with smiling cheek;
A goodly apple rotten at the heart;
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”
I always liked the word “begat”. “Begat”, to me, has the connotation of some guy having shagged some gal silly in his effort to begat for the love of family, race, civilization, pride, G_d. Begat connotes effort, focus, and a general sense of mission.
Dammit, I begat my children. I was not involved in a process of “having” children.
A fascinating, quick, and subversive book on the early church is “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?” by evangelical David Bercot. I don’t agree with all of the author’s conclusions, but it’s highly informative. I can’t imagine it’s well-received by your average Evangelical (for example, on page 57 he asks “Are We Saved by Faith Alone?” and answers it with an emphatic “no”).
Another interesting one is “The Great Apostasy” by James Talmage, a Mormon author. Unlike Bercot, Talmage focuses on how rapidly corruption spread into the early Church to justify the Mormon doctrine that the priesthood was lost, and needed to be restored through Joseph Smith.
And if you’ve got immense time and patience, Catholic author Robert Sungenis wrote a triad of books called “Not by Faith Alone,” “Not by Scripture Alone” and “Not by Bread Alone.” They can be difficult reading, and none of them are about the early Church per se, but especially in “Not by Scripture Alone” you’ll find extensive discussion of the Early Church Fathers’ view that the Bible, tradition and the magesterium (Church’s teaching authority) are the source of truth, rejecting Luther’s sola scriptura principle.
And in the spirit of Amish’s go-to-the-sources answer, yes, read the Bible, and if you’re looking for the next generation, you can get a 10-volume set of the Early Church Fathers from Amazon.com for about $125.00.
keep reading, Butters, I renounced
Just one more of your brilliant decisions.
(I say it because I care, Fistey.)
Geezer and Sobek: Thanks for your suggestions. I’ll look for some of these at the library this weekend.
Here’s why this bothers/bothered me:
Paul says: “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us” (2 Timothy 2:12). As if backing him, we find that Jesus says: “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32-33); and He says: “But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God” (Luke 12:9). He also says: “He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it” (Matthew 10:39; see also Matthew 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25).
However, in an interesting twist, Paul says: “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel” (1 Timothy 5:8). So denying the faith is not only renouncing it or converting to another faith but to fail in basic resposibilities incumbent on the believer, such as caring for others. Such unfaithful Christians are, to repeat Paul’s words, “worse than an infidel.”
For what it may be worth.
However, we cannot judge the actions of another: that’s in God hands only. I can only speculate on what I am doing and what I might do if faced with similar circumstances.
I don’t live under the law Feisty, so you’re safe. That must have been one legalistic Lutheran church you went to. Even the Wisconsin synod gets the grace thing.
The stoning non-virgins to death came up in some Bible study class where the assignment was to find things in the Bible that we should NOT follow, sort of in the context of “everything changed after the New Testament”. I was ELCA. For some reason, it just always stuck with me; maybe it was because after Bible study, the girls in my class and I went to the DQ, smoked joints, and talked about hot action. Very ironic. I think we started singing “everybody must get stoned!” after that one.
There are no Dairy Queens in Hell Feisty.
Repent!
or you’ll be getting a lot more “hot action” than you and your hoodlum friends bargained for.
I’m not worried, Amish. I’ll be with steve and LauraW simply rotting in the dirt when I die.
“…sort of in the context of ‘everything changed after the New Testament’.”
Wait, does that mean I can or cannot kidnap hobos to harvest their organs?
Can, Sobek. There’s a grandfather clause around here somewhere …
Italics+Your question=Non sequitur
Sure Sobek, you can kill all the homos you want. Theyre an abomination in the eyes of God dontchya’ know?
Just dont try to sell their harvested organs on a Sunday. That would be a sin.
Non sequitur? I never even touched her!
According to Pop Christianity, as told to me by Bart, you can’t really kill the homos…anymore, that is, but you can and should simultaneously degrade them and elevate yourself morally. Homosexuality is evil afterall, so I’m told. i guess cutting down a homo is like cussing out the devil, right? Who WOULDN’T want to do that?
Feisty, you might want to double check how I spelled the word “homos.”
I know you said “hobos” but Amish said “homos”, so I decided to go with homos.
Excuse me? I didn’t hear that, Fistey. Let me come down from my high horse, and bash that fag down there, so I can hear you better.
Feisty, you’re growing on me.
So Sandy…feel like sinning hard, fast, and furious tonight?
Rowr.
Are you gay Sandy?
Bart –
The sarcasm doesn’t work well when
1) You do get on a high horse and attribute a host of negative personal characterstics to people who’s religious and political beliefs differ from your’s somewhat
2) You do regularly use insulting and demeaning language when discussing homosexuals.
I don’t think #1 is really true. It’s just that Bart is like a one man Stadler and Waldorf; he’s been a crotchety old man since he was a child. But #2 is definitely true, though. I fear he’s just a few small steps away from turning into that Phelps fellow, and only the loving mockery of his internet peers can set him straight (so to speak).
And no, Amish, I’m not gay. Hell, I’m not even jolly.
“It’s just that Bart is like a one man Stadler and Waldorf”
So…your saying he’s being fisted by Jim Henson?
That would explain his dislike for the queers…and his hatred for the Childrens Television Workshop.
p.s. I would be willing to bet 5 bucks that Sandy is gay, Bi, or at least has done some “experimenting.”
Admit it dude.
Just because he hasn’t had sex with a women yet, doesn’t mean he’s signed on to the other team.
Stadler and Waldorf.
I’d be lying if I said I have not heard that before about me.
Damn you sandy burger, get out of my head, man.
And get your hand off my ass.
Homo.
I’ll be with steve and LauraW simply rotting in the dirt when I die.
Interesting. Considering my affection for compost and earthworms, that sounds pretty spiritual.
But I just know Steve is gonna bogart all the best dirt and rot faster than me. Bastard.
But I just know Steve is gonna bogart all the best dirt and rot faster than me. Bastard.
If it makes you feel any better laura I promise to take a nice nutrient rich dump on your grave.
That tan will pretty much be gone by then.
So will I.
*g
Dave will have nothing more to do with earth now that he has Lake Vince in his backyard.
Speaking of God, I give you Vince Young.
That’s very Christian of you, Amish.
OK, that was bad. Wrong, even.
Sorry Amish. At least promise you’ll eat some roughage aforehand.
Roughage. Now there’s a great word that I haven’t heard in a long time.
Amish could make the point that you will be the roughage, i suppose.
Being a hunchback means you never have to say “im sorry.”
But if you really want to make it up to me you can send me some naked pictures.
Of you.
Or anybody else for that matter.
Im not picky.
p.s. No Fat Chicks. Or Bart.
No Fat Chicks. Or Bart.
Redundant
I sets em up – John knocks em down.
lauraw and feisty –
Being in a grave with me won’t be much different than if you were in bed with me – I won’t move, I’ll smell bad, and you’ll really be wishing you were somewhere else.
“Being in a grave with me won’t be much different than if you were in bed with me”
yeah. except in the grave you’ll be able to get ‘stiff.’
And depending how far in to the decomposition process the ladies are, it will be the first time a woman has gotten wet laying next to me.
And on the brightside you wont have to worry about catching something…unless you count worms as an std…
Oh baby look so good in my crib at night
Yeah baby look so good in my crib at night
I could give you a million hugs
You look so good all covered up in bugs
If this thread keeps up for a few more days, we may come completely full circle and get back to the original topic, having hit every other possible topic in the interim.
Hey Steve,
You know who had got a nice rack?
C.S. Lewis.
I hear he had some D cups in his wardrobe right next to his lion and his witch.
Ta Da!
Goodnight Folks.
To kind of bring it around to the original topic…
The most excellent Captain Ed has followed our lead.
That doesn’t happen often.
[…] Don’t worry, I’m not about to subject any of you to more of my views on martyrdom. You can get your fill of that here. […]
[…] The Men Without Chests post generated over 140 comments at Innocent Bystanders. Apparently Sobek has some thick books that have literally hundreds of pages. Here’s his literary take on the whole business. […]
The funny thing about Warren’s posturing is that as a young man in Thailand he showed what he was made of. He was held as a hostage by Thai radicals sympathetic to the Viet Cong for a day or so before being released without any harm. There is a picture floating around the internet (can’t fnd it but I’ve seen it) that shows him holding the banner of his temporary captors. Guess a man will do what a man will do in order to stay alive, with few exceptions. Anyway, Warren is now sitting comfy in his big chair in Canada, half a world away from Iraq. He’s young enough (born 1953) that he could easily go visit Canadian troops in Afghanistan (or Americans in Iraq) but has never shown the courage to put in even for a comfy press junket let alone to spend time like the troops do. Total asshole.
^^
Does that pic even exist? And if it does exist, have you ever heard of photoshop?
Anyway, this was a pretty good discussion that, I feel, got the atheists thinking about eternity and how they will spend it.
The Kos post at AoS reminded me of this thread.
Bart. You don’t get it from the atheist standpoint.
There ain’t no eternity. There’s just Earth.
And people are very, very, very, smart monkeys.
I got a chest. And both of ya have seen it.
**static and choppy, muffled voices, and more static**
I feel stupid,
oh so stupid,
I feel stupid, and goofy and ..
not gay.
something.
and I pity, anyone who doesn’t feel this waaay
*singing*
I’m alive and I’m free…
Who wouldn’t want to be me?
who’s that pret-ty boy in the mir-ror there?
what boy where?
I just noticed that Bart, Brewfan, Lauraw and Amish have the SAME Avatars.
I don’t understand.
I think that’s the default when you don’t put anything in the email field.
Test.
Whew!
I knew in my heart that you and Amish were not the same person.