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Art December 18, 2010

Posted by Sobek in Art.


Detail of art:


1. BrewFan - December 18, 2010

*gets out Babel Fish translator to see what that writing on Sobek’s art means. Ahhhh! Ancient Arabic wisdom…*

Baby monkey, baby monkey, riding on a pig baby monkey

Baby monkey, baby monkey, backwards on a pig baby monkey

The world has gone insane, and you don’t know what is right

You got to keep on keeping on, get on a pig and hold on ti–ight

Baby monkey, baby monkey, riding on a pig baby monkey

Baby monkey, baby monkey, going backwards on a pig baby monkey

2. Pupster - December 18, 2010


Did you see the Nova special on fractals?


It sounded dead boring to me but the show was damn near fascinating, it reminded me of your art.

3. daveintexas - December 18, 2010

That would make a nice kitchen floor.

4. Cathy - December 18, 2010

Hi Brew. You’re singing off tune, you need accompaniment.

Your welcome.

5. Danial - December 18, 2010

In the name of Merciful Allah
Hello Cathy.There is a really wonderful place in Isfahan,Iran that built 350 years ago by Shah Abbas Safavi. We call it//square of naghshe jahan//.
search for it.
Allah saves U.

6. lauraw - December 18, 2010

Yeah Cathy, you should totally check that out next time you go on vacation in Iran.

Dress conservatively…

7. Dave in Texas - December 18, 2010

In the name of Merciful Allah, we men can beat women with whips and sticks.

This is an improvement upon the culture of the world. Because those women so had it coming to them. I can’t wait to tell my daughters how disagreements are going to be resolved now.

8. Nan G - December 18, 2010

Reminds me slightly of William Morris’ designs.(The center piece of each square.)

9. Cathy - December 18, 2010

I like Pie! Especially with pork fat lard in crust.

10. daveintexas - December 18, 2010

Silence woman… or I shall love you with the Allah is merciful whip.

11. Sobek - December 18, 2010

Danial, I love Persian art and architecture, and Esfahani stuff in particular. I would love to see the Chahar Bagh and the Shah Abbas mosque. I also really Central Asian architecture, like in Samarkand and Bukhara. A lot of the themes and decorations in my art are from Persian sources.

Are you from Esfahan?

12. Pupster - December 18, 2010


Seriously Dan. Don’t do it.

13. lauraw - December 18, 2010


14. Retired Geezer - December 18, 2010

*thinking that Sobek has reeeealy good eyesight.

*thinking that OBF has reeeealy patient qualities.

15. Danial - December 18, 2010

Yes Sobek.I am from Isfahan.
U can see Chahar Bagh strret and Sio-se-pol bridg in Google earth.
Another thing there is a beautiful Cathedral in Jolfa.Jolfa is south of Zayandeeh-rood river.My home is near the Vank Cathedral.
I can send Isfahan’s pictures to U.
This is my e-mail adress:danialamourizi@yahoo.com

16. Sobek - December 18, 2010

What’s the significance of the name Sio-se? It means Thirty-three, right?

17. Pupster - December 18, 2010
18. Sobek - December 18, 2010


19. Sobek - December 18, 2010

Pups, I’m watching that Nova thing now. It’s really interesting. The bit about art and math is exactly what I’m going for.

Ironically, the one chapter in my High School Geometry book that the class skipped was the one on math and art, mandalas, stuff like that.

20. Danial - December 18, 2010

Exactly.It means 33-Bridges./sio-se=33 & pol=bridge/.We called it 33-Bridges,beacuse It has 33 bridges/bridge=window here/.every friday I walk on it to go to Naghshe Jahan Square.30000 persons go there every friday and pray together.
My highschool is in Chahar Bagh street/Chahar=4 & Bagh=Garden/.I study Math and I learned Geometry very good.
God saves U.

21. Dave in Texas - December 18, 2010

*steps back

22. Michael - December 18, 2010

God saves U.

Most of us totally agree with that. Even Dave.


23. Sobek - December 18, 2010

I have a Tehrani friend who says Isfahanis are arrogant and don’t like foreigners. Do you think that’s true?

Are you a Twelver Shi’ite?

24. Michael - December 18, 2010

I have a Tehrani friend who says Isfahanis are arrogant and don’t like foreigners. Do you think that’s true?

No. That’s actually what Houston is like.

25. Pupster - December 18, 2010

There’s a few minutes in that Nova special on glob Al Wormening, other than that it’s pretty good.

26. kevl - December 18, 2010

My mother in law lived in Isfahan in the late 60s. Her first two children were born there; their first language was Farsi.

She brought back some incredible rugs, plates, and artwork. Beautiful items.

27. Art - December 18, 2010

Muslim kids say the darndest things.

28. Sobek - December 19, 2010

People from Houston think Esfahanis are arrogant? That seems a little … odd.

29. Danial - December 19, 2010

Your tehranian friend was kidding.
We are famous in iran on kindly with the guests.
say him,our team Zob-Ahan is first now and their teams Esteghlal and Perspolis are very weak!!!
And about your question,Yes, I am Twelver Shia.Do U know any thing about it?Do you know Imam Ali and Imam Husseyn?

30. lauraw - December 19, 2010

If Esfahanis are famous in Iran for hospitality, they must be simply amazing.
Here in the US we know Persians to be incredibly kind and fun people.
My mother worked with some Iranian ladies and she loved them.

31. Danial - December 19, 2010

Thank U Lauraw.

32. kevl - December 19, 2010

Danial, do you use a hookah? My old Middle Eastern neighbors had a beautiful red glass hookah. They would soak tobacco in apple juice and we would all share a smoke.

33. Danial - December 19, 2010

Hi Kevl
My father like hookah But my mother says it is harmful and never allows my father to use it.
but when we go picnic it makes free for my father!!!
however I believe it is not good for our health.
And one more thing,what are your neighbors from?

34. harrison - December 19, 2010

This is fascinating to watch.
I love the intrawebs.

35. Dave in Texas - December 19, 2010

I’m a Frisbyterian. We beleive that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you can’t get it down.

36. Danial - December 19, 2010

We believe that when we will die,If we were good people God invite us to his heaven.The heaven that we can not think //what is that?//But,if we were bad people God invite us to fire,the fire that we can not think //what is that?//
God saves us from The Fire

37. Sobek - December 19, 2010

Danial, earlier this year I read a book called Ali the Magnificent, about Ali ibn Abi Talib. I’ve read a lot about Iran, so I have heard about Imam Husayn, Karbala and Ashura. But I don’t know very much about the other Imams, except that the twelfth Imam went into occultation.

Have you ever traveled outside of Iran?

38. Danial - December 19, 2010

Oh Sobek…wonderful.God like U very much.God just guide someone that like them.God like U very much.
I can explain about 12 Imams for U.Last week was Ashura and I cried a lot for Imam Husayn and his family that killed in Karbala thirsty and now I am crying.I asked God to guide us.In fact God and all of his Imams like U.
I went to Maccah and Madineh 6 months ago.and I like go to Karbala very much.
this is my e-mail addres:danialamourizi@yahoo.com
give me your addres.
God guides us…

39. kevl - December 19, 2010

My neighbors were Lebanese. Good folks. Catholics in the Maronite Church.
The food they prepared was incredible. I especially liked when they wrapped grape leaves around meat and rice. The leaves tasted a little like vinegar. Delicious.

40. daveintexas - December 19, 2010

I had a friend in college who was Lebanese… took me home for dinner one weekend. His family was very gracious, and oh man, could momma cook.

41. Danial - December 19, 2010

Was he Shia?

42. daveintexas - December 19, 2010

No idea. When I was 18 I wouldn’t have known what it meant.

43. lauraw - December 19, 2010

Love that stuff. My friend’s late father in law was Syrian, and he used to make the stuffed grape leaves (we’d help him pick the leaves off wild grapes growing around here) and kibbeh nayyeh and fresh hummus.

44. BrewFan - December 19, 2010

Danial, Christians believe that no man has ever existed that can meet God’s standard for entrance into heaven based on their good works. All have sinned and fall short of God’s perfect standard. So, God sent His son Jesus Christ to earth to become the once-for-all sacrifice needed for men to be saved. This gift from God is free and can not be earned. You just need to accept it. You need to have faith.

45. Cathy - December 19, 2010

Kevl, We had a neighbor in St. Louis who prepared stuffed grape leaves. We had a grapes growing entirely over our backyard gazebo, and I’d invite her to come get our fresh grape leaves for her preparation. They were yummy. And yes — I remember tasting the vinegar too.

46. Michael - December 19, 2010

Danial, let me summarize what Brewfan said.

The 13th imam was Martin Luther.

47. Michael - December 19, 2010

(Danial, I am the Lutheran type of Christian. Brewfan is a Calvinist type of Christian. Our differences are not as bad as the Sunni/Shia/Wahhabi argument, but Brewfan and I have had some religious debates. I was making a joke with Brewfan.)

48. Michael - December 19, 2010

By the way, Harrison, I agree with you. This thread is fascinating.

Consider: a Mormon who is unusually informed about Persia randomly engages with a devout Shiite in Iran at a goofy little website like this. Danial now has friends in the United States of America.

The internet is a wonderful thing that gave Danial access to us, and us to him. This was made possible by trillions of dollars invested in fiber optic technology, cheap computer chips, and the IP protocol.

49. Dave in Texas - December 19, 2010

After we convert him we can eat him for dinner.


50. Sobek - December 19, 2010

Danial, God does like me very much. Much more than I deserve. I think it’s important to be respectful of other peoples’ cultures and faiths, and I have fun learning about them.

Do you have a big family? Are they all good Muslims? What do your father and mother do?

51. Danial - December 20, 2010

Hi Sobek.My family has 6members.I have one older and one younger brother and I have a younger sister.My mother was a teacher.she teached Arabic.but now she is housewife.My father is a jobholder.He works in oil corporation.when he was 20,Dictator Saddam attacked Iran and he went to front.after 6 monthes he injuried.6 persons of my clan immolated in front and one of them was 13.He went to front beacause he loved Imam Hossein.
But now,we get up at 5:30 for pray.at noon at afternoon at sunset and night we pray God,so we do not forget God during the day.we endeavor that do not say lie and cuss to anyone.because God and Messenger and our Imams interdict us from these kind works.I read speechs of God in Quran every morning then go to school.Just God knows who is a real muslim!!!How about U.can U explain me your life,please?

52. Retired Geezer - December 20, 2010

can U explain me your life,please?

I bet Dave in Texas has a few ideas.

Michael - December 20, 2010

can U explain me your life,pleasee?

Sobek, start by explaining how you got such a good looking wife. That’s what I want to know.

53. Cathy - December 20, 2010

Sobek, start by explaining how you got such a good looking wife. That’s what I want to know.

It’s God’s Abundant Grace. You oughta know about that.

54. Danial - December 20, 2010

I do not want know about how Sobek got such his wife.
I want to know how Sobek live?
God saves his family.

55. wiserbud - December 20, 2010

It’s God’s Abundant Grace. You oughta know about that.


I thought Cathy ended up married Michael because she was Hitler in a previous life or something.

56. Danial - December 20, 2010

God do not like obtrusives and satirize.
Is it true?

57. Michael - December 20, 2010

Danial, we are friends who make jokes with each other all the time. Some of them you will not understand, because we have known each other for years. Although we live in different parts of the country, most of us have traveled to meet each other in person.

58. kevl - December 20, 2010

Danial, you can make jokes about Michael. He likes it.

59. wiserbud - December 20, 2010

Danial, you can make jokes about Michael. He likes it.

It is really the only way he can get any sort of human interaction, so he has learned to just lie back and enjoy it.

60. Cathy - December 20, 2010

God do not like obtrusives and satirize. Is it true?

Danial, I dunno what your Allah thinks of humor, satire or sarcasm. From what I can gather, he doesn’t come across in writings as being kind, gentle, good, or caring of humankind.

HOWEVER I’m totally certain our Triune God (Creator-Father, Redeemer-Son, and Sustainer-Holy Spirit) of Heaven and Earth whom Christians worship above all, not only enjoys our humorous efforts, He also is the author of all humor. He created us with the ability to make jokes and lighten up. Humor is part of humility and the enemy of pride.

Must add that some humor ends up not really being humorous — but vicious, mean, aggressive, hurtful and abusive of others. That’s totally different and not really humor in my view.

61. daveintexas - December 20, 2010

Then he (Elisha) went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!”

When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

II Kings 2: 23-24

62. Nan G - December 20, 2010

Daniel at #51:
Sad that you mentioned a 13-year-old was at the front in the Iran/Iraq war and killed.
In the USA our leaders do all they can to prevent teenagers younger than 18 from entering the military.
Sometimes one sneaks in.
In World War One and Two several sneaked in who were only 16.
But that is still rare.
Even more rare now.

Why would your leaders allow such boys to do this?

63. wiserbud - December 20, 2010

Must add that some humor ends up not really being humorous — but vicious, mean, aggressive, hurtful and abusive of others.

Uh oh…..

64. Michael - December 20, 2010

See, Dave, the funny part about that story is that they were female bears.

How did they know?

65. lauraw - December 20, 2010

They picked up the mess.

Michael - December 20, 2010

You are probably right, Laura. Those female bears put the remains in Tupperware with little labels on them (“Hebrew Children Stew Meat”) and saved it in the freezer.

66. Dave in Texas - December 20, 2010

Oh well that’s just great, now we’re gonna have bears. In the newsroom.

67. Sobek - December 21, 2010

Laura, that was awesome.

Danial, I’m a lawyer in California. I lived in Europe for two years, and I’ve traveled to Egypt, Canada, Mexico, Honduras and Belize. I’m a Christian, so I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my personal savior. I’m a Mormon, which means I believe God still has living prophets and apostles on the earth today.

As I said before, I believe it is important to be respectful of everyone’s beliefs (but, like Cathy, I also believe God appreciates humor, and that we can laugh at each other if it’s not meant as cruelty). I think part of respect is learning about other people. I read the Qu’ran in English a few years ago, and I’ve read parts of it in Arabic, but not all of it. I taught myself some Farsi, so I can say “man kami farsi sohbat me konam.”

I think it’s great that you are learning English, and that you are learning about Americans by chatting with us here. I like learning about Persians, so I’m glad you are answering my questions.

Do you feel free to talk about anything you want on the internet, or do you think someone from your government will read what you say? If you do feel free, tell me what you think about Ayatollah Khamenei and President Ahmadinejad. I would also love to hear you tell us about the election protests in Iran last year. Everything I read about was in Tehran. Were there protests in Isfahan, too?

68. Sobek - December 21, 2010

Nan G, when the Iraqis invaded Iran in 1980, Saddam Hussein mined the border heavily. The Iranians didn’t have a lot of equipment to clear out minefields. Ayatollah Khomeini produced a fatwa that said it was okay to send children through the minefields to clear them out, and that any children who died in the process would go to heaven to be with God and the martyr Hussein. As you can imagine, a lot of them died that way.

That level of commitment is part of the reason Saddam lost. Also, Saddam expected the Arabs living in Iran (especially in the oil-rich west) would rise up against Khomeini, but that didn’t happen. Also also, the US and a lot of western countries armed Saddam after he retreated back to Iraq to make sure Iran didn’t capture any territory.

Interestingly, Iran could have ended the war after a couple months, when Iraq retreated. But Khomeini didn’t want to let it end, and he ordered his troops into Iraq, expecting that the Iraqi Shi’ites to rise up against Saddam. That didn’t happen. Turns out, both countries badly miscalculated, and that people generally don’t like to be invaded, no matter what the ideology of the invading force.

69. Danial - December 21, 2010

Thank U Sobek.prophet Mohammad saied God like happies Muslims and I am a very happy boy.but I thincked others wanted satirize Cathy and U.I am very sorry.//Imam Ali saied laugh without clown is a pry//
U believe God still has living prophets and apostles on the earth today.
We do too.but shias believe that last prophet was Muhammad and after him god sent 12 immaculat Imams but despot Calipes killed 11 of them.but when 12th Imam was 5,by the power of God he vanished.because Abbasid Calipe wanted to kill him.and now he is living between the people,but no one know him.during 1250 years ago many good shias met him.because just shias believe him.by Mohammad and 11 Imams speeches he will outburst in future with christ and 313 helper. and they will deliver all of people from cruelty.I live with trust of see him.
And about Iran government.I am against Ayatollah Kamenei and Mr.Ahmdinejad.because they did not observe Islamic laws completely.But Ayatollah Khomeini was great and most of shias love he.but now he is dead and can not does anything for us.But we wait for Imam Mahdi outburst and I love this wait.
And Nan g,U do not know any thing about Imam Hossein.Omavi King,Yazid killed he when he arrived to Karbala thirsty and his army had 72 soldiers.but Yazid army had 12000 members.he send all of his sons to front and all of them martyr.at last he was alone but he challange with enemy and killed in way of God.so,now we learn from him many things.if some foreign country will attack Iran and Iran army can not defence,I will go to front like Imam Hassan child Ghasem that helped his uncle Hossein in Karbala when he was 14.
God saves U.

70. Danial - December 21, 2010

//Imam Ali saied laugh without clown is a pray//It is correct.
And about freedom in Iran.U know western government boycotted Iran because Iran government do not accept colonialism of them.before change the regime in Iran to an Islamic regime,US ransacked Iran oil and others mines.but after that we could take back our independence and US government is not happy for this.
now,we have many financial problems.but we are not worry about it.we believe when Imam Mahdi outburst,all of the problems will solvency with his hands and God’s helps.but now there are many limitations against Iran.and we should help government to solve this problem.

71. wiserbud - December 21, 2010


Did the recent earthquake hit anywhere near you?

72. Nan G - December 21, 2010

Danial, Do people wish one another a ”happy Ashurah?”

Did you perform self-flagellation during Ashurah?
A lot of Shi’ites do.

But I read somewhere that, even though Iran is mostly Shi’ite, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are so frightened of the Iranian people that they deployed thousands of armed men to prevent public prayer or other celebration of Ashura this year.

Or are you Sunni?
I have read that the Iranian government keeps moving their Sunni population away from areas where they are too numerous.
Like in Chabahar.

Sunnis in Iran are disenfranchised……not allowed to hold office, right?
We allow anyone to hold office, of any religion.
And I knew a young man who won office as mayor at only 18 years old.

73. Cathy - December 21, 2010

Must add that some humor ends up not really being humorous — but vicious, mean, aggressive, hurtful and abusive of others.

Uh oh…..

Wiser, if it helps you feel better, St. Paul was the prince of sarcasm, using it as a tool to slice and dice his way through an ‘apologetic.’ As far as I’m concerned, you’re fine, especially considering the venue. Hugs, Cutie!

74. Sobek - December 21, 2010

Danial, we heard that your government deployed the Basij last year to stop the protests after the election. We heard the Basikis did horrible things to people. Is that true? Did you take part in the protests, or know anyone who did?

Who do you think will be the Supreme Leader after Ayatollah Khamenei dies?

75. BrewFan - December 22, 2010

When that Supreme Leader gig opens up I’m all over it. Sobek, you’re going to be my food taster if I get the job. Hint: make sure you sign up for the extra life insurance.

76. Danial - December 22, 2010

Did you perform self-flagellation during Ashurah?

Hi eveyone.Nan g,self-flagellation is forbidden in Iran but in other shia country like Iraq and Lebanon people do it.In Iran we hate it.Ayatollahs say it is//Harram//.It means God do not like it.and about Sunnies.They are different sects.Prophet Mohammad before death saied to Muslims after me Imam Ali is your leader but many muslims by the sorry were simply and did not accept Ali after Prophet death.now a sect of Sunnies that called Vahhabi are really terrorist.they are in Saudi arabia and Qatar and Pakistan.they grace some Sunnies in Iran to kill Shias disarrange Shia’s rites.but one of the chastly Sunny terrorist/Abdol Malik Rigee/ in Iran captured 6 months ago and he saied US army supported him from Afganistan.
And about Basij.really it made during Iran-Iraq war.lots of people joined it and went to front.they are real Basiji.but now Basij is a group that work in different activities.and one of them is retinue the regime.last year I taked part in the protests and my leg injuried.but Mr.Ahmadinejad had to save regime.now in England students are demurrer from government’s policy.I saw it on internet.
But I believe Just God knows what will occur in future.

Are you belive in Nostradamus predictions?

77. Nostradamus - December 22, 2010

I predicted this.

78. skinbad - December 22, 2010

Greetings Danial,

Why do you love Ayatollah Khomeini? What did he do that was good for the Iranian people?

79. Nan G - December 22, 2010

Thanks for the answers, Danial.
In the USA people would be called ”racists” or ”Islamophobes” if we made such sweeping statements about a sect in Islam, as you did about the Saudi Wahabbi sect of the Sunnis.
But, it is cool.
It is your opinion.

You know, there’s a big debate here in the USA about the words in the Koran ”There is no compulsion in religion.” 2:256; 88:21&22; 39:41
Some Muslims claim it means Muslims can change their religion anytime they want.
Others say, if a Muslim leaves Islam he must be punished until he returns or he even killed for it.
What is your view of that verse in the Koran?

80. BrewFan - December 22, 2010

I think we might want to be careful about what we want danial to answer for his own safety. My impression is he is a minor.

81. Nan G - December 22, 2010

BrewFan, if that is true, I am thinking they have a far better education system there than here.
Think if we had asked an American minor, even a college-bound one questions such as these.

OK, I live in CA where the kids are schooled by the worst teachers in the nation, and the students get the worst scores in the nation.

So, maybe we have some smart kids elsewhere in the USA.

82. BrewFan - December 22, 2010

Danial how old are you?

83. Danial - December 23, 2010

Hi everyone.
I am 16.
Skinbad asked why I love Ayatollah Khomeini?because he delivered us from an anti-Islamic and inefficient regime.and he was a really muslim.He lived very uncermonious.he was great.
and about this aya ”There is no compulsion in religion.”
I asked from an honest Ayatollah about this aya.he saied about it:
It has 5 meaning.
1-Muslims can not compel others to change their religion.
2-a muslim can change his religion.but he should not encourage other muslims to change their religion.if he does it Islamic regime should punish him.
3-If a muslim puffery against Islam,Islamic regime should punish him/like Salman Roshdi that sacrileged to Quran/
4-Muslims should respect in other religion opinions.
5-Islamic regime can not stop other religion’s seremony.

there is in Isfahan a christian parish.every year in Ashura they join us.and every year we join them in Christmas.It is the goal of Quran.
And about Wahhabies again.they are the really terrorist.Osame Bin Laden is a Wahhabi and Wahhabies support them.They are enemy of us.We hate their dirty works.they show an indelicate and impolite face of Islam to west.

84. Sobek - December 23, 2010

Danial, during the protests last year, most of us on this site were very disappointed that our president didn’t do more to support the Iranian people. We really hoped you would succeed and get a better government. But some Americans argued that it would be bad if America said they were in favor of the protesters, because then the Iranian government would accuse us of meddling, and it would give them more of an excuse to arrest protesters.

What do you think President Obama should have done? Announced America’s moral support for the protesters? Sent money to opposition groups? Sent weapons to opposition groups? Something else?

85. Sobek - December 23, 2010

Michael, I think this one belongs in the Classic Comment Threads.

86. Danial - December 24, 2010

Hi Sobek.
I think American government are not worry for Iranian people.Mr Obama is not protesters’s friend.While US governments support zionist,we do not want their help.
Send money to opposition groups just make problems harder.It is very shameful for me to think our problem is harder than Palastinian’s problem.Destroy the Israel is more important than our freedom.I believe our problems will solve very soon.what about Palastine?US government knows Iran government and people never surrender in front of western governments.Most important reason of our problem is west boycotts.Ayatollah Khomeini saied all of the American people are our friend,but US government is enemy of our people.during Iran-Iraq war US govenment always support Saddam and by Americans weapones many youngs and teens were killed.
dear Sobek,are U again think Mr Obama is our friend?
Just God can solve our problems.

And one more thing,I heared in news about flood in California.are U safe now?

87. kevl - December 24, 2010

Danial, it is Christmas Eve here in the US. Did you go to the Isfahan parish and observe Christmas?

You are a very interesting young man.

88. Russ from Winterset - December 24, 2010

“Destroy the Israel is more important than our freedom.”

Well, this is the problem in a nutshell. Hating Israel more than you love your own freedom.

89. Danial - December 24, 2010

Hi Kevl.
I know next week will Christmas.I have 3 good Christian friends.every year I observe Christmas with them in Vank church and they also observe Shia’s holy days like”Fetr”,”Azzoha/Ghorban”,”Ashura” in different Mosques.
God likes it.

90. wiserbud - December 24, 2010

Destroy the Israel is more important than our freedom.

S’funny, but I know of no other peaceful religion that believes in the destruction of another country or people.

In your humble opinion, Danial, why, exactly, must Israel be destroyed?

Ya know, other than “God likes that.”

91. BrewFan - December 24, 2010

Danial, would you be suprised to learn that 90% of everything you have ever heard or learned about Israel is propaganda? You see, if your government and your religion can get you to hate somebody/something it makes it that much easier for them to distract you from the harm they are doing to you and your family. Think about that.

92. Russ from Winterset - December 24, 2010

Danial, you seem like a nice kid. That’s why I really don’t like to hear hateful stuff about Jews coming from you.

While none of the IB regulars are Jewish, the vast majority of us are Christians. You may not see the connection there, but what you need to remember is that Jesus, the Man who was sent by God to take all our sins away and make us worthy of heaven………..was Jewish.

Think of it this way: When we go to church, the man on the cross behind the altar, who is the Son of God, is Jewish. This might explain why we’re sensitive about someone who wants to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.

93. lauraw - December 24, 2010

Ah, this is where discussions with muslims typically come to a quiet end.
If a muslim cuts himself shaving, zionists are to blame.
We just can’t possibly understand that point of view.

94. Cathy - December 24, 2010

Danial, with all respect for you that I can muster, I’ll share this also: As a Christian it is my obligation to honor the Jews and thank God for them. I’ll support and stand with them because they are the ‘apple of God’s eye’ and God’s treasured and chosen people. WE Christians are the New Israel, but I can not and will not participate in disrespect or hatred of those who came first, because we are the Children of Abraham through Christ. fin.

95. daveintexas - December 24, 2010

Bacon is life.

96. Cathy - December 24, 2010

…and bacon is also a great ingredient in pie.

97. wiserbud - December 24, 2010

..and bacon makes great Christmas gifts

*crosses fingers…

98. Russ from Winterset - December 24, 2010

Bacon pie, with bacon crust and a zesty bacon sauce on top?

Yeah, any civilization that can’t figure out how to thoroughly cook bacon and remove the risk of trichinosis isn’t REALLY a civilization in my book.

99. Sobek - December 24, 2010

Danial, yes I’m safe. Thank you for asking.

No, I don’t think President Obama is your friend. At about the same time he refused to support the Iranian people against bad elections, he was very quick to support the President of Honduras in favor of bad elections. I think President Obama likes dictators too much for him to be a friend of any people.

The Palestinians’ problem is that they won’t stop fighting. If Israel were to stop fighting, they would all be killed. So of course they won’t. If the Palestinians stopped fighting, Israel wouldn’t kill them, or treat them poorly, or throw them in jail without trials. Just as you Iranians were willing to die to protect your country from the Iraqis, the Israelis are willing to die to protect their country from the Palestinians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians, Algerians and Libyans.

100. Sobek - December 24, 2010

Danial, you’ve shared parts of your faith with us, so I’d like to share some of my faith with you. Probably the most famous verse in the Bible is John 3:16 –

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but should have eternal life.”

That is an important verse because it shows how much God loves us. So much that He sent His beloved Son to die for us and to take all of our sins – every single mistake we’ve ever made or will make – upon himself, to pay the price for those sins, if we will let him. It is also important because it says “whosoever” should believe on him, meaning that the gospel is for everyone, no matter who they are. God loves everyone in the whole world, and wants them to be happy.

101. Cathy - December 24, 2010

Thanks, Sobek. I love you, Brother.

And Danial, our God is your God, who wants you to hear this message of unconditional love. I hope that when you are surrounded by Christians in their worship of the Christ-child that you sense this free offer of love and consider it.

Nothing would bring me more joy than to know that you heard and understood this message that Sobek, and I and others here have to share with you.

“This is Love — not that we loved God but that he loves us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

102. Michael - December 24, 2010

Yup, this is going on the Classics sidebar.

103. Danial - December 25, 2010

Hi,happy christmas.
Sura 2-ayas 136 to 137
136. Say ye: “We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam).”
137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but God will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

Please answer these questions.

1-Is God physical?
2-Why God sent a lot of prophets?
3-Is their goal different?
4-If Mohammad and Moses and Jesus living now,are they have different faiths?
5-Why God sent differant religions?
6-Was one the prophets a lier?
7-Why there are 4 differents Gospel now?
8-Who wrote Gospels and who wrote Quran?
9-Why there are differents in Gospels and Quran?
10-Who is the last prophet?or are there any prophet livning now?If yes,who is he?

And about Zionists,we do not worry about our enemies,if they kill all of Muslims,God will fight against them.if all of the countries will attack Iran and kill us thousands,we again fight with them,while occure this Sura’s promise.

Surah 110. Succour, Divine Support
1. When comes the Help of God, and Victory,
2. And thou dost see the people enter God’s Religion in crowds,
3. Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).

God saves U.

104. Sobek - December 25, 2010

Danial, probably everyone who answers your ten questions will give you different answers, because we have atheists, a Hindu, and different kinds of Christians here. Here are my answers:

1. I don’t know what you mean by “physical.” I believe God the Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone, that are perfect in every way.

2. There are a few reasons. First, God speaks to people in their own language and in their own circumstances, so many prophets are necessary so that everyone has a chance to hear and understand. Second, people need to be continually reminded of God’s law, so new prophets are sent. Third, while I believe that the messages of long-dead prophets are still very much applicable in our time, I also believe that God has more specific messages for our time, and that people in the present day need a living, prophetic voice.

3. No, all true prophets work to bring people to God through faith and repentance.

4. Moses and Jesus would have the same faith. I believe Moses prophesied specifically about Jesus. I don’t know about Muhammad, even though I have studied a lot about him. I haven’t been able to decide.

5. God blesses everyone with as much light and knowledge as they are willing to receive. If a group of people is only willing to follow part of God’s law, that is what they will receive. That is part of why different groups have different beliefs. The second part is, I believe Adam was given a full knowledge of the gospel, but as his children grew wicked and spread across the earth, they lost parts of that original whole, and added new things according to their understanding.

6. I believe there have been false prophets, and that there will be false prophets in the future.

7. Because they were written by different witnesses to the same events, and because they were written to different audiences for different purposes. If BrewFan and I both saw a car accident, and he wrote down what he saw to describe how horrible it was, and I told a jury what I saw in a court of law, the two versions would sound different. But they would describe the same thing, and if we were both accurate, there would be no contradiction.

8. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the gospels under the influence of the Holy Ghost, who is God. I still don’t know who wrote the Qu’ran. I do not believe, in its current form, it represents the true doctrine of God. But I do believe the Qu’ran represents an incredible improvement over the days of Jahiliyya, and I believe much of it is good. I have memorized two of the suras: al-Fatiha and an-Naas. I like them both.

9. I’m not sure how to answer that.

10. There has not yet been a last prophet. The true and living prophet of God on Earth today is named Thomas S. Monson. When he dies, God will choose another to lead His church.

105. Sobek - December 25, 2010

Danial, Thomas S. Monson’s words to the Church are translated into many languages every year, including Farsi. Here is a link to the last General Conference for the Mormon church, in October, translated into Farsi:


You have to click the button that says Download.

106. BrewFan - December 25, 2010

1-Is God physical?
God the Father is a spirit, no body. While on earth, Jesus was fully man but unlike others before him and others since he was without sin.

2-Why God sent a lot of prophets?
What Sobek said but one important point is that to be a true prophet of God the standard is 100% accuracy. Anything less constitutes a false prophet.

3-Is their goal different?
What Sobek said.

4-If Mohammad and Moses and Jesus living now,are they have different faiths?
Moses and Jesus were of the same faith. Because Mohammed failed to recognize Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior I would say Mohammed would have
a different faith.

5-Why God sent differant religions?
God didn’t send different religions. Religion is man’s attempt to please God. Instead of listening to God to learn what pleases Him, men want to please God in a way that they like and thus you have different religions/denominations.

6-Was one the prophets a lier?
Since the beginning of time there have been men who claim they were prophets but were really not. Jesus himself warned that there would be lots of false prophets after Him. The good news is that it is easy to spot a false prophet (see number 2 above, if a prophet is wrong even once he is a false prophet).

7-Why there are 4 differents Gospel now?
The word Gospel means ‘good news’ and is used to describe the message Jesus brought to earth. In the Christian bible there are 4 books that were written for the distinct purpose of recording the one Gospel message brought by Jesus.

8-Who wrote Gospels and who wrote Quran?
The four books mentioned above were written by four of Jesus’ apostles; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books were written under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit. I don’t know who wrote the Qu’ran.

9-Why there are differents in Gospels and Quran?
The Bible is how God chose to reveal his will. That makes it different from any other book ever written.

10-Who is the last prophet?or are there any prophet livning now?If yes,who is he?
John the Baptist was the last known prophet. Sobek may not agree with this 🙂

107. Michael - December 25, 2010

1-10: I agree with Brewfan.

(It hurt me to say that.)

108. Michael - December 25, 2010

Danial, I know it is confusing to understand the differences in religious teaching.

Keep in mind that it is the constant goal of Satan (Shaitan) to confuse the message of God to His people. Satan is powerful and he is skilled at telling lies and creating confusion.

We believe that if you seek God with a humble and repentant heart, you can defeat Satan and learn the truth.

You will never know all the truth, or understand everything. God is too big to be completely understood. But you can know enough to accept His mercy, and eternal life in heaven.

109. Retired Geezer - December 25, 2010

Religion is man’s attempt to please God. Instead of listening to God to learn what pleases Him, men want to please God in a way that they like and thus you have different religions/denominations.

Preach it, Brother.

110. Danial - December 26, 2010

1-Is God physical?
if God physical and has a body,I never believe him.Because he can not exist everywhere.maybe he is in another country now and can not listen all of things and also he needs a place.
I believe in a complete God that exists everywhere and we can not coneive him.an animal can not coneive human and human can not coneive God completely.
2-Why God sent a lot of prophets?
We just agree whit Sobek in first,second and third reasons.
4-If Mohammad and Moses and Jesus living now,are they have different faiths?
We believe in 124000 prphets.but we don’t know all of them.all prophets had same faith and same goal.because just God sent them and God has only goal for human and it is felicity.It is false that say Moses and Jesus and Mohammad had different goals and faiths.
5-In time of Adam,God should not sent Jesus,because people could not understand his learning.and in time of Jesus God should not sent Mohammad,because people could not understand his learning.
6-all of the prophets was true.150 years ago a person in Iran saied “I am prophet”.but in a discussion with Shia Ayatollahs he could not provered that God sent him.many years after that provered his God was Briton and they sent him!
7-Why there are 4 differents Gospel now?
because 4 different persons wrote them.were they prophets?

111. Danial - December 26, 2010

U telled me who wrote Gospels.But now I want say how Quran sent.
“1400 years ago Mohammad borned in Mecca after his father dead.most of the Arabs were pagan.But Mohammad praied God.every night he were going to a cavern near Mecca that called “Harra”//6 months ago I went there in Mecca// and praied God.when he was 40 years old at a night an angel went to the cavern and showed him a brede and saied to Mohammad “read”//this is the first Aya of Quran that sent//.Mohammad was illiterate and he did not know who is he?so answerd “I can not read”.3 times the angel ordered him”read”.at last Mohammad read the Sentences of brede by the power of God.then angel told him “God accept you for be prophet”.Mohammad was prophet for 23 years.during that period God send different parts of Quran to Mohammd by the angel and Mohammad told them for Muslims.some of them like Imam Ali wrote them and some of them sticked the Ayas in their minds.No more aya,No less Aya.exactly speechs of God.Before Mohammad died,he told Muslim”after me Imam Ali is your leader”.Imam Ali was not a simple man.God learned him and others Imams all of the knowledges like Jesus and Mohammad.after Mohammad died Ali and others followers of Mohammad collected Quran Ayas in one book and wrote lots of Qurans book same that.So Quran is God speechs and God is not lier,So all of Ayas of Quran is currect.
But we know 4 human wrote Gospels.they were good people.but maybe they had some mistakes.Like the story of Jesus.God emended their mistake in Quran.But your fathers did not accept God speechs.what about you?are you challenge with God speechs?

112. Russ from Winterset - December 26, 2010

If you consider the Quran to be the amended Word of God, why not consider the Book of Mormon to be an amendment to the Koran?

After all, you don’t see a lot of Mormons blowing up buses full of children, do you? Possibly, they’re closer to God’s Truth than you are. Maybe you should answer the door the next time some of those nice young men in suits come knocking.

113. Sobek - December 26, 2010

I don’t think we have many missionaries knocking doors in Isfahan.


Danial, I just found a Farsi movie called “The Stoning of Soraya M.” Have you heard of it? I also saw a very good Farsi movie called “Men at Work.” Do you know it? What kinds of movies do you like?

114. Cathy - December 26, 2010

1-10: I agree with Brewfan, with one small exception.

Luke was not one of the 12 original called Apostles in the narrow sense. He could be considered an apostle/disciple in a wider sense as one who carries on the calling to help build God’s church.

Luke was probably a Gentile (non-Jew) and is thought to have been a physician and personal friend of Mary, the mother of Christ Jesus.

Evidence of these things can be seen in how he wrote and about what he wrote, and from what perspective he wrote. His Greek was very high quality. He took an interest and wrote about physical things that a physician would know about, and his Gospel included things that Mary probably personally shared with him that the other Gospel writers do not include.

Luke also wrote the book of the Acts of the Apostles which gives an account of the growth and challenges of the Early Christian church.

Hope this all helps, Danial. Blessings as you consider answers to your great questions.

115. Cathy - December 26, 2010

Danial, I offer more of an explanation about the purpose of prophets here.

Prophets (in the narrow definition) were essential in the Old Testament (pre-Christ) times because they were needed to speak and write God’s Word to the people. Because Christ had not yet come, prophets pointed people back to God’s TRUE word in the historic writings (anchor), and point people forward to the coming promised Messiah, Jesus Christ (hope). Many of the historic accounts of God’s people in the Old Testament tell of how the people kept falling away and getting things messed up. Prophets spoke the truth for God when God determined them to be needed to set the record straight.

Many prophets were given the gift of being told by God directly about future events which were then proclaimed to the people. AND when these events came true it would show prophets to be TRUE prophets — not false prophets.

The word ‘prophet’ in its most simple definition means ‘one who speaks for God’ or ‘one who speaks on behalf of God.’ In a wider sense, anyone who speaks the TRUTH of God on God’s behalf is acting as a prophet. But as soon as anyone deviates from God’s plain and simple truth as is laid out for us in Scripture, these so-called prophets are no longer speaking for God, AND will in all likelihood suffer the consequences of pulling people away from the truth as God intended for it to be told.

A particularly special piece of Scripture I like helps me to understand the role of prophets comes from Hebrews 1:1-4…

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by HIS SON, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

God’s Son is Jesus Christ. He came to earth to serve us, to suffer and die on the cross to pay the price of our sinfulness. Jesus is the ULTIMATE PROPHET — because he fulfilled the promises made long ago in the Old Testament accounts we can find in Scripture. He IS the WORD of GOD in the FLESH, who lived among us and demonstrated as no other could for us God’s grace and love for us.

There is no better TRUTH than a TRUTH that can be made known and demonstrated IN THE FLESH — and that TRUTH is JESUS CHRIST, alone. JESUS CHRIST demonstrates for all of us throughout history, up to today, and into the future, just how much God loves each and every one of us. This free gift of LOVE and GRACE is for ALL.

116. Cathy - December 26, 2010

DMX the rapper, shares failures, faith, and desires for a future (10 minutes).

117. Cathy - December 26, 2010

… just to add DMX has had a tough time living up to his desires and goals. I still give the guy some credit for knowing he’s a sinner and trying. His journey is not over.

118. Retired Geezer - December 26, 2010

Cathy that was pretty interesting, I didn’t know a lot of that.

119. BrewFan - December 26, 2010

Cathy is correct that Luke was not one of the twelve apostles. Nor was Mark. However, both can claim apostolic authority for their writings. Sorry for the confusion!

120. Dave in Texas - December 26, 2010

Tell me who? Who?

Who wrote the book of loooooooove.

121. Danial - December 27, 2010

Hellon Sobek
U just found a Farsi movie called “The Stoning of Soraya M.” because western governments
just like this kind movies about Islam!
a woman who she is MARRIED and has INTIMACY ,it is a very very very big MISDEED and God saied in Quran her punishment is Stoning.if she is not married and has INTIMACY,her PUNISHMENT is 80-100 thongs and for men,also that.
U know “Ali ibn abi taleb” was really Just.In his government he did stoning for a townswoman.Just one time.it is the order of God and we do not know what is the reason exactly.
and about this movie“The Stoning of Soraya M.”
someone who made it,wanted to show a truculent face of Islamic laws.they had not a good goal.God’s law is not changeable.in Islamic Republic of Iran,It is very rare.like Ali government.If U want know useful things,watch this movie”The message”.It is historical movie.
and I do not know “Men at Work.”.I like the interesting movies like”Saw”.
God saves U.

122. wiserbud - December 27, 2010

in Islamic Republic of Iran,It is very rare.

So, it’s okay if women get stoned just now and again though.

‘Cause God likes that. Or something.


123. Cathy - December 27, 2010

Gospel writer Mark was supposedly a close friend of Peter, and wrote the account for the Apostle Peter.

124. Allah - December 27, 2010

it is the order of God and we do not know what is the reason exactly.

Bitch was asking for it.

125. lauraw - December 27, 2010
126. Dave in Texas - December 27, 2010

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

127. Russ from Winterset - December 27, 2010

I like the joke about that quote. Jesus says it, then a big stone comes flying out of the crowd and hits the adulterous woman square in the head, killing her.

Jesus kind of tilts his head, looks at where the stone came from, and says “Darn it (fill in the name of a holier-than-thou public figure here), I really wish you’d stop doing that.”

128. wiserbud - December 27, 2010

I like the joke about that quote. Jesus says it, then a big stone comes flying out of the crowd and hits the adulterous woman square in the head, killing her.

I hate to say this is the “best scene in the movie™”, but it is one in a movie with easily dozens:


129. Sobek - December 27, 2010

Danial, I found the movie because western governments allow us to watch whatever movies we want. Just three weeks ago I read a book that was very favorable toward Iran. Our government has nothing to do with what news or information we get, because publishers here have free speech and free press.

I haven’t seen “The Stoning of Soraya M,” but now I definitely plan to. I am wondering, are you unhappy with the movie because you think it is false, or because it is true but makes Iran look bad? If it’s false, what about it is wrong?

Do you mean the Saw movie about people getting killed in different ways, or a Persian movie called “Saw?”

130. Sobek - December 27, 2010

Wiserbud, my favorite scene was with the aliens, because that pegged my Random-Meter.

131. wiserbud - December 27, 2010

Wiserbud, my favorite scene was with the aliens, because that pegged my Random-Meter.

This is my all-time favorite scene.

“I say you’re the Messiah and I should know! I’ve followed a few!”


132. harrison - December 27, 2010

a woman who she is MARRIED and has INTIMACY ,it is a very very very big MISDEED and God saied in Quran her punishment is Stoning.

I hate to break it to you, kid, but that’s barbaric.

133. Tushar - December 27, 2010

I noticed that Danial dismissed the questions about Jews without really attempting an answer.

I think Muslims in general hate Jews because Jews, instead of meekly dying on the swords wielded by Muslims, have the temerity to fight back and even win. It burns them up that the tiny country of Israel not only weathered an invasion by six Muslim countries at once, but soundly defeated them all.

If any one knows a bigger reason of why they hate the Jews and Israel, I am interested to know.

134. harrison - December 27, 2010

The Jews are their Emmanuel Goldstein.

135. wiserbud - December 27, 2010

If any one knows a bigger reason of why they hate the Jews and Israel, I am interested to know.

You ever eaten gefilte fish?


136. wiserbud - December 27, 2010

By the way, mega-kudos to Sobek for creating the best IB thread EVAH!!!!!!!!!111!1!!11!!!11!!

137. daveintexas - December 27, 2010

Daylight. Savings. Time.

stone them.

138. BrewFan - December 27, 2010

I got stoned once

139. Sobek - December 27, 2010

“If any one knows a bigger reason of why they hate the Jews and Israel, I am interested to know.”

I always assumed it was jealousy over Spaceballs.

Thanks Wiser. Great line: “How shall we f— off, O Lord?”

140. Russ from Winterset - December 27, 2010

If the Jews had never existed, the Arabs and Persians would have had to invent them. After all, someone has to be the scapegoat for your massive Cultural Failure.

141. Michael - December 28, 2010

If the Jews had never existed, the Arabs and Persians would have had to invent them.

No, they just would have had to focus on the Danes.

142. Tushar - December 28, 2010

After all, someone has to be the scapegoat for your massive Cultural Failure.

That is the thing. The Arabs and the Persians don’t consider themselves as cultural failures. There no such word as ‘introspection’ in their dictionary. You ask a Westerner, an Israeli, an Indian or even a Japanese about the shortcomings of his culture, and you would hear a list, an endless one if the guy happens to be a lefty. But ask an Arab or a Persian, and you will hear nothing.

143. Cathy - December 28, 2010

You ever eaten gefilte fish? *gag*

Yes, Wiser, in a Jewish home during one of the Jewish festivals. Quite tasty, but the small bone pieces in there took some getting used to.

Your MontyPython vid clip was my first laugh of the day. Thanks.

144. Danial - December 28, 2010

Tushar,are you ever read about Sassinids Empire or Persia Empire or parthian Empire or Safavi Empire or………………………………………………………………………………………

Are you know anything about Ibn-Sina or Zakaria-Razi or Sheikh-Bahaei or Ghiyas-ad-din Jamshid or Saladin or……………………………………………………………………………………….

We do not hate Jews,we hate Nazism,Apartaid and also Zionist.Moses was a grate prophet and I love him.Tushar,are in US.christians are safe from Israel.But we should challenge with Israel because they are dangerous for us,not U.
God saves U.

145. Danial - December 28, 2010

Sobek,I mean the american”Saw”.It is very grisly.

Stoning is God’s law and it is not against democracy.but someone who made that movie wanted to show a barbaric face from Islam.I told U in Ali’s government it was exist,but it was very rare.I think the reason is suppression from propagation turpitude.
I request from U to see both of these movies. “The Stoning of Soraya M,” and “the message”.then adjudicate.

146. Michael - December 28, 2010

You forgot to mention the Ottoman Empire.

All those places are now very poor, corrupt, and backwards.

147. Retired Geezer - December 28, 2010

*Never seen any “Saw” movie.
Or Nightmare on Elm Street any of those types of movies.

Never will.

148. wiserbud - December 28, 2010

But we should challenge with Israel because they are dangerous for us,

I’ve never once heard the leaders of Israel pronounce that their ultimate goal is the utter destruction of Iran.

I cannot say the same for the leaders of Iran.

Sadly, Danial, I can see where the propaganda that your government feeds you has done it’s damage. I hope that, someday, you will learn just how misinformed you are.

149. wiserbud - December 28, 2010

boy, I sure wish I could edit that comment. ^

150. Cathy - December 28, 2010

Sadly, Danial, I can see where the propaganda that your government feeds you has done its damage. I hope that, someday, you will learn just how misinformed you are.

I agree with Wiser. (wondering what you wish to edit… it’s –> its is all I could find)

151. wiserbud - December 28, 2010

pronounce /= announce

152. Cathy - December 28, 2010

^ no biggie.

153. Cathy - December 28, 2010

*waves and winks at Wiser*

154. wiserbud - December 28, 2010

*waves and winks at Wiser*

weeeel…. how YOU doin’?

155. Cathy - December 28, 2010

Good. You?

156. wiserbud - December 28, 2010

Good. You?

Much, much, much better now.

157. Sobek - December 28, 2010

Danial, I’m embarrassed that of all the cultural offerings America has produced, you mentioned the Saw movies first of all. But I respect your right to an opinion, and I think it’s great that your country didn’t forbid you from seeing the movie.

“Stoning is God’s law and it is not against democracy.”

God’s law is by definition against democracy. Democracy is rule by the people, and if the people aren’t allowed to make or change a law (in this case, because it would contradict God’s law), then democracy does not apply at least to that extent.

Consider this: the Christians on this site agree with you that adultery is against God’s law. We also all believe that the government should not punish it: that any punishment must come from God, and not from the state. Whether we are right or wrong to believe that, it means democracy prevails in that instance, because it is the will of the American people not to have the state punish adultery.

Again, we can argue about whether the state should or should not punish adultery, but if the people have no say in the matter because God’s law trumps the will of the people, that is not democratic.

Now I would argue that theocracy is not desirable, and not because I do not love or want to obey God’s law. It’s because, as you’ve seen, most people disagree as to what God’s law really means. Freedom of religion thus protects everyone’s conscience, because no one in America can force me to believe something I don’t want to believe, just as I can’t force anyone to believe as I do. It is mutual protection.

It also recognizes reality: if I had all the force of law to compel you to become a Christian, what good would it do you? I don’t think God would be pleased with your conversion if it was done under threat of death. And I can’t possibly force you to believe one thing, or stop believing another.

Imagine if the Umawiyeen, instead of trying to kill Ali, Hussein and their followers, had allowed them to worship and believe as they chose. Imagine if after the Abassid revolution, the Caliphs had decided not to hunt down the Shi’ites and kill them. How much suffering would have been avoided, if the rulers had realized that they could never use force to change a man’s religion! Your sect, of all religious groups in the world, should be most attuned to the need to let people worship as they please, or choose to not worship. To follow God’s law, or to disobey it — and face eternal consequences, rather than earthly. You should have more compassion than any other religion, sect or creed on earth because of what the Shi’ites have been through.

And yet, as soon as Khomeini took control of Iran, he became an oppressor, as he had been oppressed. He forced others with military might just as the Shah would have forced him had he not fled to Najaf. He compelled the masses to submit to his interpretation, just as Yazid forced Hussein’s followers on penalty of death, and just as Mu’awiyya forced Ali’s followers on penalty of death.

I love and respect God’s law. But I do not love forcing God’s law on anyone who does not wish to follow it, because that breeds nothing but hatred, death and hell, and can never lead to the salvation of a soul.

158. Sobek - December 28, 2010

Mormon Christians have thirteen Articles of Faith that are part of our scriptures. The eleventh says, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

Mormons are also anxiously engaged in missionary work. We would like to persuade the whole world, if possible, to believe as we do, because we believe that is where true happiness and the fullness of the gospel are. But we would never force anyone in violation of their own consciences.

159. Sobek - December 29, 2010

Danial, is this the movie you want me to see?


160. Retired Geezer - December 29, 2010

Pretty good logic, there Mr. Sobek.

161. Art « Innocent Bystanders - June 3, 2012

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