Isaiah Manuscript On Display May 13, 2008
Posted by Michael in History, Religion.trackback
In my mind, Isaiah is the most compelling book of the Old Testament. That’s not just because of it’s messianic content and eerily accurate prophecies, but mostly because it is, in part, plainly addressed to the people of the the end times, those anticipating the “Day of the Lord” — meaning you and me. Speaking across the centuries, Isaiah has some news for us, and many warnings.
I’ve often thought Isaiah really belongs in the New Testament. During every season of Advent and Lent, in my church you will hear readings from Isaiah almost every week, with his relentless message that we should make ready for the Day of the Lord.
For the first time since 1967, the Isaiah Scroll from Qumran is on display. This scroll is virtually the entire book from prior to 100 B.C., still in legible condition due to the arid conditions in which it survived the centuries. Jesus would have used a scroll exactly like this when he read from Isaiah, and said “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21.) I remember seeing the caves at Qumran, where all the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, when I was on a business trip to Israel and had a chance to visit Masada in the same area. I would love to see the scroll. This is surely the preeminent national treasure of Israel.
2 minutes ago
JERUSALEM – One of the most important Dead Sea scrolls is going on display in Jerusalem this week — more than four decades after it was last seen by the public. The 24-foot scroll with the text of the Bible’s Book of Isaiah had been in a dark, temperature-controlled room at the Israel Museum since 1967. It went on display two years earlier, but curators replaced it with a facsimile after noticing new cracks in the calfskin parchment.
The museum decided to put the scroll back on show for three months as part of Israel‘s 60th anniversary celebrations.
The priceless manuscript, written by a Judean scribe around 120 B.C., was in a long glass case Tuesday, its neat rows of Hebrew letters distinct and legible. President Bush, visiting Israel this week for the anniversary celebration, will be one of the first to view it.
The Isaiah manuscript was the only complete biblical book discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, one of the great archaeological finds of the 20th century.
Israel Museum puts Dead Sea scroll on rare display – Yahoo! News
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Innocent Bystanders 
Woe is me for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I comment among people of unclean lips!
And one of my favorite passages:
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. (53:6)
it’s messianic content
It is pretty nifty, isn’t it? I guess they don’t call Isaiah a prophet for nothing.
I wonder if observant Jews would be offended by your taking for granted that Christ fulfills the prophecies in question…of course, I believe that too, and I’m sure Jews are aware that we believe that, but asserting that Isaiah belongs in the New Testament might be a bit over the line for an observant Jew.
What are you trying to say there, Brew?
I wonder if observant Jews would be offended by your taking for granted that Christ fulfills the prophecies in question…
That’s nothing I take for granted, nor is it a personal conclusion. It’s just what Jesus had the audacity to say about himself.
#5
I might add that Jesus said this in his home town of Nazareth, shortly before He enraged the crowd and they tried to throw Him off a cliff. The locals were somewhat perplexed that Joseph’s son would be talking like this, and Jesus responded with harsh words.
A great Bible study, by the way, is to tie together all the N.T. passages about how Jesus reacts to the issue of his paternity, which was likely the subject of gossip. From a young age, He was testy about claims that Joseph was His real father.
What are you trying to say there, Brew?
If there are no seraphim handy to apply a burning coal to your lips, let the Lord take away your iniquity and you will be forgiven!
The Jews missed the Messiah the first time, but some will catch him the second time around.
But Hey, it’s all part of God’s big PLAN.
#5
Excellent! Whenever somebody says, “oh, Jesus was a good man and a good teacher” I go right to this verse and quote C.S. Lewis; Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or the Lord. There is no in-between.
Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or the Lord.
I remember my Dad saying that. Are you telling me he ripped it off from Lewis?
I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying that I imagine that an observant Jew might see your statement that Isaiah belongs with the NT as an attempt to subvert their religious texts, just as I imagine both Christians and Jews are annoyed by Islam’s rewriting of, for example, Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac.
But then, we do not have a token Jew here, so I dunno.
Good point, BrewFan.
People who focus on Jesus as a good teacher have missed a good part of what He said. It’s like they pick and choose what words they’ll pay attention to.
But then, we do not have a token Jew here, so I dunno.
That’s Pupster’s job.
^
That’s right!
Shalom, Pupster.
That was a funny thread, where we were handing out token religious assignments. I’ve forgotten where it was, though.
giving a shot, from total memory
6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the LORD, lofty and exhalted on his throne, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphim, each with six wings, and with two they flew and with two they covered their feet, and with two they covered their faces. And the called out to one another saying “Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God of Hosts. The whole earth is full of His glory”.
And the thresholds and foundations shook, at the sound of their voices. And the temple was filled with smoke.
And I cried out “woe, woe is me. I am undone. For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among an unclean people, and I have seen the Living God”.
Then a seraphim flew to me, with a burning coal in his tong, and he touched it to my lips and said “see, this has touched your lips, and your sins are atoned for”.
A genuine encounter with the living God always produces humility.
Here’s my second fav Isaiah passage.
do you not know? have you not heard? the everlasting God, the LORD, the creator of the earth does not get weary or tired. He not understandable. He gives strength to the weary, and to him who lacks power He gives power. Though young men grow weary and tired, and vigorous young men stumble, those who wait for the LORD
will regain their strength. They will mount up with wings as eagles,
they will run and not get tired, they will walk and not faint.
Sometimes it’s way harder to walk and not faint, than it is to mount up with wings as eagles.
Then a seraphim flew to me, with a burning coal in his tong, and he touched it to my lips and said “see, this has touched your lips, and your sins are atoned for”.
And I said unto the seraphim, “Ow-ow-ow-ow! Sunnuvabitch! I didn’t shoot anybody or rob a store! What the hell?”
And the seraphim held the coal close unto my lips and I grew silent, and the wisdom of the Lord swelled within me.
FYI, the Hebrew for “unclean lips” is just a metaphor for sinfulness, and fire is a symbol of purification.
Hey Michael, do you like the “identicons,” the geometric avatar thingies? I just switched over to Shamus’s wavatars, and I like them better. (You can change the avatars by Settings -> Discussion.) But then, I think Shamus is just plain full of win anyway…It’s neat that WordPress made his wavatars an option.
Thanks, Mrs. Peel. I’ll try the wavatars and see what happens (if I can find the right page on our All-Knowing Dashboard™).
“The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.
“But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.
“And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.”
Before I sold my soul to a law school and the Nevada State Bar, once upon a time I helped work on a project to create the world’s largest electronic database of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I scanned high-quality photographs and negatives of the documents and burned them onto CD or recorded them on AIT. It was a great experience.
“Settings” is all the way over to the right.
You’ll be glad to know that Dave’s wavatar looks like a smelly pirate hooker. And I look…I don’t really know how to describe mine. But it’s not a smelly pirate hooker, I know that.
I like the wavatars!
Brewfan looks like a goofy pumpkin, so that’s all good.
looks like you found it. Damn, Dave was signed in on this thread, so his wordpress avatar overrode his smelly pirate hooker look.
Sobek looks studious.
So cool, Sobek! I miss being in more academic areas. My professor/mentor/thesis adviser had all these inside stories about the movers and shakers of the Jewish Studies area (Neusner and Geza Vermes, as examples).
I think my wavatar is very studly.
OK, it’s actually kind of a smirky leer, but I’m OK with that.
thesis adviser
You’re in a doctoral program?
Undergraduate major thesis.
My thesis was on the Christian and Islamic influences present in Pirqei d’Rabbi Eliezer.
What’s the thesis about?
I know, it’s none of my business, but I don’t care. I’ll pry anyway.
In case no one knows, I seriously love Judaism as an academic discipline. My initial plan was to get a doctorate in Jewish Studies. Then it was to get one in national security. Then it was to get one in fundamentalist Islam. Now it’s to finish my MBA and get a decent job as none of the preceding three worked out.
Strange how growing up knocks sense into one’s head.
Oops.
I thought everybody already knew that Rabbi Eliezer was a closet Mormon. I learned that in junior high school.
Pirqei d’Rabbi Eliezer is a Jewish text that was used quite extensively by Jews, and today is only used by ultra-Orthodox Jews. Nonetheless, it is still cited every now and then in commentaries on Torah and on the prayerbooks. What is interesting, especially about such an important text like this, is the presence of beliefs and attitudes that came from and dealt with Christianity and Islam.
For example, PdRE says that Abraham got circumcised on Yom Kippr. And so every Yom Kippur, God sees/remembers the blood Abraham shed in obedience to God, and because of this God forgives the sins of Abraham’s children, which are the Jews. Now where, do you think, this idea of God forgiving His people’s sins because of the blood shed by an obedience servant came from?
Also, research shows that this text was written during the Umayyad dynasty. And an interesting part of PdRE is the thorough excoriation of the uncircumcised, as people who as impure as the dead, and as people who, in the eyes of God, are actually dead. This was an indication of solidarity with Muslims (who are also circumcised) against Christians (who were uncircumcised).
The amazing thing about the religion faculty of my alma mater is that while each member were serious and well-accomplished academics and researchers, each were active believers in each’s respective religion, which each taught. And so my professor would wear a kippah when he’d open up the Bible and he would never say The Name of God. There was a famous Buddhist who taught Buddhism. A Roman Catholic woman whose husband is a Lutheran pastor. A Roman Catholic mysticism teacher and practitioner. Awesome, awesome people. The railers against religion were able to have their say, but those of us who believed and had faith, we were never put to shame or made uncomfortable.
In our Christian Ethics class, the professor (the RC with Lutheran pastor husband) brought in another professor who studied and taught about the environment, and he was a Roman Catholic. And he totally debunked global warming and its accompanying hysteria! It was so cool! It felt like heresy! I miss being in school. That school. With that faculty.
For example, PdRE says that Abraham got circumcised on Yom Kippr.
???
There was no Yom Kippur at the time of Abraham.
“…this text was written during the Umayyad dynasty.”
That’s very interesting, because the Umayyad’s were so notoriously secular (to the point that some question whether al-Walid (for example) was a Muslim at all. Given their well-publicized decadence it seems a strange time for Rabbi Eliezer to express solidarity with them.
“There was no Yom Kippur at the time of Abraham.”
A lot of writers — Jewish, Muslim and Christian — like to ascribe later events to significant earlier dates, to show continuity. Thus, although no one in Abraham’s time would have called the day Yom Kippur, Jewish writers like to claim that the day coincided with what would have been Yom Kippur had it been revealed at that time.
FYI, the Hebrew for “unclean lips” is just a metaphor for sinfulness, and fire is a symbol of purification.
Yeah. I actually got that. Please delete my comment.
Your comment made me laugh.
By the way, I had a profoundly disturbing experience recently, although I’m not sure if I should admit this:
I was totally wasted, sitting by the campfire, and I almost referred to myself as “Sandy” (not my name in real life).
Oh, man. It’s like my internet sockpuppet is possessed like Chuckie, and it’s taking over!
HELP ME.
Wait, my avatar is now a grumpy pyramid with a unibrow?
I do not like this one bit.
OK, fine, so maybe the eyebrows are accurate. But, come on! A f’n sad-faced triangle?!! I protest.
A f’n sad-faced triangle?!! I protest.
You have the same chin.
Things that are true about Sandy:
– Has a small chin (a.k.a. a “weak chin”, as lauraw so cruelly put it, years ago)
– Has a Unibrow/Monobrow (either/or, depending on my mood; I like to mix it up)
Things that are NOT true about Sandy:
– Looks like a mopey polygon
I protest!
He kind of reminds me of that little animated triangular guy on Captain Kangaroo.
Has a small chin
The way I look at it, the bottom of the triangle is either no chin or all chin. I was being a glass-half-empty kind of guy there.
sandy, wavatars are based on your email address. Put a different email in the box, and it should change. (At least, that is how Shamus wrote the plugin…Wordpress might have changed it when they decided to incorporate it.)
I am a smelly pirate hooker
Wavatar test….
Eh heheheh.
Yes.
So I was quizzing Pupster boy 1 on his spelling words this morning, while he breakfasted on a Caffeine Free Pepsi. His last word was caffeine, and he (very carefully) removed the can out of his range of vision before he tried to spell the word.
/proud dad
my wavatar…
sandy what’s your email? I want your wavatar.
And boiling hot wax will do wonders for that unibrow.
Hmmm…. I wonder what it does for duplicate email addresses?
Testing this new stuff…
OK, I typed in Mrs. Geezer’s email address to see what her Inner Avatar is.
Oh… that’s perfect!
What about Gmail?
As a Jew, Jesus does not fulfill the Messianic prophecies. Sorry. But there are set guidelines that one must complete to be the Messiah. Jesus never accomplished those objectives.
My new wavvy will be my Insane-Inner-Bitch!
Just.
Perfect.
My new wavvy will be my Insane-Inner-Bitch!
It’s like Cathy with a Kimber… hiding behind the peaceful Ladybug exterior.
As a Jew, Jesus does not fulfill the Messianic prophecies.
Dude… I’m waaay down on the totem pole of biblical knowledge contained here at IB and even ‘I’ could find a bunch of references.
Robert. I would be very interested in hearing what objectives you claim that Jesus never accomplished — if you are willing to share and put up with many of us Christians who see it another way. But I would be grateful for your efforts to share this with us.
I’m a Christian. I spend time almost every day in Scriptures, but consider myself a healthy skeptic. And yet I still remain convinced that the Jesus of which the New Testament Gospels, accounts, letters and revelations were written is not only the Son of God, but is also the Promised One who fulfilled the Old Testament promises of his coming through many acts, along with His suffering and death not only paid the price for my sin, but yours and every other human being who has lived or will live on this earth. I believe He is also the One whose physical body was raised, who appeared before the women followers first, the disciples, over 500 other people at one time as he lived among his followers for 40 days before his ascension to heaven. He has a place for me — and any other who comes to believe and trust in Him as the Way to this salvation. His love for me and you could not hold him in the grave.
You need not be sorry.
E.g., as to the Messiah’s birth, he must be (1) House of David, (2) Clan of Jesse, (3) Born in Bethlehem.
(4) Have a wicked-awesome wavatar
And… thanks Mrs. Peel for helping introduce us to the Wavatar fun here.
Hope you are doing well, Lady. I haven’t chatted much lately.
It’s finally spring here… been into cleanin’, fixin’ and plantin’ stuff.
(4) Have a wicked-awesome wavatar
I’m sure he does, Pupst!
Hi,
Sure. 🙂 There are certain requirements that a Messiah must accomplish. No one so far has accomplished them. There have been MANY false messiahs in Judaism (unfortunately) and quite a few of them took place during the Roman occupation. Here is a list of requirements:
1. He must be Jewish – (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2. He must be a member of the Tribe of Judah – (Genesis 49:10)
3. He must be a direct male descendant from the Line of David and Solomon – (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)
4. He must gather the Exiles and bring them back to Israel – (Isaiah 11:12)
5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem – (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)
6. He will rule in a time of world wide peace – (Micah 4:3)
7. He will rule in a time when the Jews follow all of G-d’s commandments. (Ezekiel 37:24)
8. He will rule in a time when all the peoples in the earth acknowledge and worship G-d – (Isaiah 66:23)
I hope this answers some of the questions. 🙂
Jesus fulfilled 1-3 but I’m thinking the 4-8 are gonna happen in the future when he returns.
There’s a verse about the Root and Offspring of Jesse, which seems to indicate that he was before Jesse and a descendant of Jesse.
“No one so far has accomplished them.”
It looks like your list primarily hinges on a rejection of the second coming (as perhaps implied by your “so far”?). Is that a fair statement? Because I don’t think most Christians will disagree with you that several of the requirements you listed have not yet been accomplished, but we do believe that they will be accomplished by the same Jesus who was crucified.
“There’s a verse about the Root and Offspring of Jesse…”
Isaiah 11.
The problem is that they did not happen so far, thusly he isn’t the Messiah. And, there are issues about #3 depending on which genaology you go by in the New Testament (I was raised as a Christian until I was 15 years old). According to Jews for Judaism website:
The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html
One could argue, using your logic, Retired Geezer, that Bar Kochba could be the Messiah as much as Jesus since he was able to convince the knowledgable Rabbi Akiva that he was the Messiah during the revolt in 133 (http://www.njop.org/html/akiva.html). Or any other individual who claimed to be a messiah. Since the Jewish concept of an afterlife is not similar to a Christian concept of an afterlife.
Sobek, I think my post on #70 might answer your question. 🙂
Thanks Sobek. Plus there are a bunch of OT verses about him being crucified.
Casting lots for his clothing.
I’m almost out the door and kind of distracted so I’m not able to give this the time it deserves.
We had a Jews for Jesus guy come to our church and do a demonstration about Jesus in the Passover. We also had about 300 people for a sit-down Passover meal.
It was pretty neat.
OK, I’m off to work… Michael and Brewfan are in charge. Try to play nicely together.
Boo
Hmm. Boring.
OK, and now?
TEST
Geezer. I know what you are talking about.
Our congregation had a woman from the Jews for Jesus organization come to our church to demonstrate and explain how Jesus is the fulfillment of all that is involved in the Passover. Her presentation is called Christ in the Passover and is well worth the time and effort to experience.
The presenter was positive, joyful, intelligent, and a powerful communicator and I was blown away. She strengthened my resolve and my faith!
Lauraw,
Darling — you are never boring.
OK, my turn at the avatar thing….
Hmmmm an aristocratic star-wastrel.
Lovely.
John 20: 30-31 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
The fact that some of the prophecies that Robert mentions are still in the making is not enough rationale for me to reject Jesus as the Christ. Jesus himself fulfilled many of these and others Robert did not mention. And Jesus claimed to be the Way,the Truth and the Life, and expects his followers to trust based upon the witnesses and evidence that is laid before them and us.
Some of the prophecies clearly have been fulfilled — and that is what I will to hold on to. Hebrews 11, the by Faith chapter, helps me understand that at the very basic level of faith, our way of salvation is no different from any of the other believing and faithful people of the Old Testament. Faith is believing in God’s promises, not simply judging the facts and assessing for ourselves whether or not the historic Jesus has completely met all the objectives set. It is not my place to make that kind of judgment. God calls us to to believe the Word, cooperate with the Spirit working in us, and trust what is still unseen, unknown, and waiting for us the same way Abraham trusted God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Robert – Thanks for responding.
The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
Robert — I don’t have my resources handy, but I learned awhile back that both Mary the mother of Jesus and also her husband Joseph were descendants of David. Maybe someone else will step in and assist here. So I can drop my doubts with a smile and consider that our Sovereign God took care of these details long ago so that such doubt could be overcome with faith and confidence and that the truth about Jesus as our Messiah is evident if you want to see it.
Avatar check (keeps fingers crossed).
Yuck. The pole-axed, silenced, pink hexagon. What a motivation to change my site name (and hence my email address).
Just make up an email.
Until you find one you like.
Like me.
The lineage in Matthew was written from the Jewish point of view; through the lineage of the father. The lineage in Luke was written from the gentile point of view; starting with Jesus, then His mother and moving backwards through time. This should not be suprising because Matthew was written for a Jewish audience and Luke was written for gentiles.
Thanks Brew.
Also what I love about the Gospel writers is how you learn that God uses their own personal characteristics to help communicate a variety of aspects of the historic Jesus that God wanted us to know about.
Luke, the physician, is able to report anatomic details about the crucifixion, for example, that the other writers did not. He is also caring and respectful of women and reports their perspectives quite frequently. He became a personal friend of Mary the mother of Jesus. So his account includes many of the details that only Mary would have been able to report about Jesus’ early life.
Matthew, the tax collector, was a man of details like any good Jewish accountant. So he sets out to write the most thorough account to proclaim that Jesus’ Kingship and fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy by frequently referring to the O. T. texts for support.
“The problem is that they did not happen so far, thusly he isn’t the Messiah.”
That doesn’t make much sense to a Christian. You essentially posit that because something has not yet happened, it can never happen.
If you start with the assumption that Jesus did not rise from the dead, and will not return a second time, then your point is quite valid. I’m not about to argue that Christ brought peace to earth on his first visit (some have, in a spiritual and figurative sense, but I don’t think that’s enough to satisfy prophecies that I believe are to be taken more literally). But if you start with the assumption that Jesus’ mission is not yet over, then your premise (if he hasn’t done it yet, he never can) falls to pieces.
lauraw, all three of those avatars look like they are constipated. They all fit you to a “T”. 😛
my turn
GLAR! That avatar goes with the email address: ishitmypants@ishitmypants.com
This one is from ishitmypants@ishitmypants.com
That did something weird . . . trying again . . .
daveintexasisahomoparaffinuser@nttawwt.com
This is fun:
michaelhasabatmanfetish@forrobin.com
themilwaukeebrewerssuck@mlb.com
whatthehellisahoosier@rednecks.com
Hi Cathy,
The thing is, one cannot be a Messiah before completing all the requirements. You are just altering the way the requirements. This is why, I believe, the Jews rejected Jesus. He probably said some good things, did probably some interesting deeds, but did not live up to the requirements that a Messiah must need to accomplish. Which is why after the First Council (or was it the second Council) in Jerusalem, it was decided that the Apostles would seek converts in the Gentiles instead of focusing on the Jews. The Jews, as a whole, rejected Jesus and the subsequent teachings because the requirements of a Messiah.
Sobek, I understand what your saying that if he died and comes back and then he accomplishes the rest of the goals then he is the Messiah. Conceivable, with that rationale any other False Jewish Messiah could do essentially the same thing, as I noted before. There were other Jewish Messianic movements that had far more support than the Jesus movement.
composmentishasnotorso@howdoesheshit.com
one cannot be a Messiah before completing all the requirements.
Really?
Look, you don’t think Jesus is Divine. We get it already, ok?
I didn’t mean to be rude or anything. I thought this was just a discussion.
Not so much a discussion as a pointless argument about two irreconcilable views.
I’ll shut up, if that’s what everyone wants to do, knock yourselves out.
“I didn’t mean to be rude or anything.”
Well you can see how Dave would get the wrong impression. You look kind of pissed off. And purple. And one of your eyes is grotesquely dilated.
I hope I don’t come off as rude. Before I ever got into politics and blogging, I spent all my time on-line arguing about religion. I don’t recommend that, btw. It’s a waste of time, and it has a negative effect on your spirituality. When I started arguing politics, I decided to stop arguing religion just as a matter of not having enough time to do both. But the old reflexes are still there.
Your argument to Cathy, that “one cannot be a Messiah before completing all the requirements,” suggests that a person is not a messiah on day 1, and becomes a messiah on day 2, after completing the necessary requirements. Is that an accurate summary of your argument? If not, please let me know. In the alternative, it could be that you are arguing that the messiah does not demonstrate his messiahship until he has checked off everything on the list. Is that a more accurate statement?
I want to make sure I understand you properly instead of setting up and ripping into a strawman.
Arias made the similar argument at Nicea, that He “became” divine.
I mean, you either believe He is or you don’t. Either way I ain’t losing any sleep over it. But deciding the entire checklist has to be completed is a human construct, I’ve never seen any Biblical evidence for it.
You haven’t been rude Robert. Opinions differ, and when they differ regarding religion, it especially can cause even the most lovable, docile, soft-handed people to become a little edgy.
one cannot be a Messiah before completing all the requirements.
This is your interpretation. No where in the scripture does it say that all of those attributes of the Messiah where going to be manifest at the same time.
This is why, I believe, the Jews rejected Jesus.
But they didn’t reject him, their leadership rejected him and not even all of them did (Nicodemus). On the day of Pentecost 10’s of thousands became believers.
Which is why after the First Council (or was it the second Council) in Jerusalem, it was decided that the Apostles would seek converts in the Gentiles instead of focusing on the Jews.
No. Sorry. It was decided when Paul became a believer; somewhere between the back of a donkey and the ground.
He probably said some good things, did probably some interesting deeds
This statement demonstrates your lack of knowledge or reveals your underlying bias of arbitrarily rejecting the authority of the apostles, people who were there with Jesus and were eye witnesses to the events.
The Jews, as a whole, rejected Jesus
Again, this is an untrue generalization.
There were other Jewish Messianic movements that had far more support than the Jesus movement.
So where are they today? Or do you dismiss the impact Christianity has had on the world?
I don’t think you’re being rude, Robert, but you make, and repeat, a lot of suppositions we’ve already demonstrated are not relevant to your attempt to deny what Jesus asserted, and witnesses attested, as true.
test
Looks like a hangover.
how’s this?
hmmmm
Testing:
deathtotheinfidels@allahuakbar.com
Wow, that’s incongruous.
Testing:
thefrenchlovejerrylewis@oyvin-glayin.net
I’m keeping this one.
Testis . . . Testis . . . One . . . two . . . three???
Bleah. That one is michaelisaflaminghomosexual@buttman.com
How about arabbiapriestandavoodoowitchdoctor@walkintoabar.net
Well that sucks.
Come on, someone try to argue about the Bible with the dead-eyed, grinning blue sun. I dare ya.
The Jewish view of Jesus boils down to this:
1) The Gospels are not historically accurate, and in some cases demonstrably inaccurate, so we don’t know what he actually did and said. And what the Gospels attribute to him are word and actions not compatible with being the Messiah.
2) The Messiah, when he cames (may it be soon!) will fulfill all the prophecies the first time around. No Second Coming. And we will know the Messiah only after he has fulfilled the prophecies, not before.
3) Most of the prophecies which are cited in the New Testament are either not actual prophecies, or have been interpreted in a way which distorts their true meaning.
4) Most of the core beliefs of Christianity–the Trinity, the birth of Jesus, the Atonement–contradict clear teachings in the Torah.
5) Finally, a number of texts cited as prophecies are, as a matter of the literal text. Psalm 22, for instance, reads in the original Hebrew rather differently than Christian versions based on the LXX, and the prophecy, such as it is, does not refer to a specific person, but to the people of Israel and the persecutions we have suffered and will suffer at the hands of the Gentiles.
So when we see Christians using the Old Testament, sometimes we’re glad, but just as often angry at distortion and misuse.
As for Abraham observing Yom Kippur, it’s a standard trope of the Midrash that the Patriarchs observed the Torah in full, even though the Torah was not revealed until Sinai. Nowadays, the Orthodox rightwing treat this as historical fact, and come up with long involved explanations of how the Patriarchs did it, and how Biblical figures never actually violated Rabbinic law, even before there was such a thing as Rabbinic law. However, the connection of Abraham with Yom Kippur has a long history in Midrash, and the quote you give can be explained without any reference to Christian input.
BTW, I visited the Shrine of the Book in 1973, and saw the manuscript on display there. It may have been the facsimile, but we weren’t told that. Whichever, it’s a very impressive sight–even without knowing the contents or the history of the scroll.
Everything is sort of a generalization. We really do not know the figures in terms of how many Jews converted to the Christianity any more than how many Jews were considered to the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes or Zealots (and however many branches of Zealots there were).
Yes, I do believe it is an irreconcilable viewpoint between Christians and Jews. In that I totally agree with Dave in Texas.
Sobek, wasn’t Paul in the first or second Council in Jerusalem where they had the debate on whether Gentiles had to convert to Judaism before they were able to become a Christian – that is what I am trying to recall.
The Jewish Messianic movements, the ones in the past are long gone but unfortunately there are other movements going on even in present times. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, in 1984 there was an attempt to destroy the Dome of the Rock in order to basically summon the Messiah to rebuild the temple.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/messiah.html
Well, I’ve always used my gravatar, but I guess I could drop one of my other accounts in the field and see what I get.
Oh, that was no good. Mayhap another one.
Cripes! Poor guy looks like he just got buggered by something an order of magnitude too big. I’m going back to the Dai-Gurren-Dan banner
So when we see Christians using the Old Testament, sometimes we’re glad, but just as often angry at distortion and misuse.
We don’t care. Besides, we know the Jews are all behind the Daylight Savings Time conspiracy and that whole “8 hot dogs in a pack, 10 buns in a pack” deal too so we like tweaking your noses (see what I did there?).
“And what the Gospels attribute to him are word and actions not compatible with being the Messiah.”
I’m curious about this one. Can you expand?
Oh, and I think we can temporarily relieve Pupster of his duties as token Jew. Meanwhile, I propose designating Pupster as our token Snake Handler.
not in the confines of a comment, or even a blog post.
But one quick example: healing on the Sabbath. The true Torah position is that the Sabbath can be violated to save a person’s life, so healing per se is not forbidden on the Sabbath, and doctors have, in essence, special flexibibility to ignore the usual prohibitions for the sake of their patients. And because the Sabbath is a time of joy and peace, medicine and healing that would alleviate a person’s pain, etc. is also approved. But if, for instance, you can heal a person of their permanent lameness, then you can do so, and should do so, after the Sabbath ends. So Jesus could have easily and should have waited to cure that lame guy until after the Sabbath was over. He didn’t which means he violated Torah law which means he isn’t the Messiah. (Assuming the incident actually took place–as I said above, the Gospels are demonstrably inaccurate on lots of things.)
Actually, Jesus’ teachings can be divided into two categories: teachings also found among the teachings of the Pharisees, and teachings unique to Jesus which often violate the teachings of the Torah, if he actually said them. The second category is important, but relatively small compared to the first category. The Gospel writers gave the Pharisees a bad write up, but most of what Jesus taught about morality and ethics was derived from, or at least in total agreement with, the Pharisees.
Dave, neither do we, just like when you press the “J” key on the keyboard money gets secretly wired to a super secret bank account that’s sole purpose is to get Nazi crap from off the moon! That was a conspiracy a friend of mine in Georgia told me …a long story short is that one of his employees thought that conspiracy was a true Jewish Conspiracy. So, hey if we can do that…Sure we can take credit for the 8 hotdogs in a pack vs 10 hotdog buns. So long as the hotdogs are Kosher. 🙂
Wow — this post is gettin’ some action. I don’t know whether to laugh play with the wavvy-guys or participate in the discussion about Jesus.
BTW — I like what all my great goober-buddies have been saying while I was doing laundry, ironing, and running errands.
The thing is, one cannot be a Messiah before completing all the requirements.
Robert – Jesus doesn’t need to earn the right to be called the Messiah by you or me, anymore than you earn the right to be called Robert or whatever your real name is. And likewise you and I don’t earn the right to be identified with him as members of his kingdom. Our identity with him is a gift.
Jesus is and always has been the Messiah. He was present at the creation of the world. God with foreknowledge knew we would screw up this world and need a Savior. Jesus had the power to do as he pleased. He could have chosen to say no but he didn’t. He doesn’t need your approval of some list of things you claim he must accomplish before he is worthy of your attention and gratitude. Jesus chose to take on the role of a suffering servant and I am very grateful for that.
What pleased Jesus was to submit to the will of the Father and become a lowly human being and put up with a lot of abuse and arrogance for thirty-some years and submit to every conceivable physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual turmoil in order to take on himself all the punishment that was due to all the human scumbags on this earth, and that includes me.
All this might not make any sense to people who need to hold onto their pride and arrogance, like many of the Jewish leaders of the time who were void of humility, gratitude, or love for others. But Jesus’ love makes perfect sense to those of us who know we need a savior and have come to realize that His work for us was done and completed on the cross as he said it was.
The fulfillment of prophecy is NOT for the purpose of being a check list on Jesus’ report card that you get to grade. The fulfillment of prophecy is set up for the purpose of helping you and me see Jesus as the Word, God’s Word kept, and aid our understanding of God’s plan for us so that our faith in the coming promises is possible.
This purpose of prophecy rings true throughout biblical history — that prophets spoke for God sometimes promising and sometimes threatening what will happen. Sometimes these were contingent upon whether people are obedient or disobedient. And then we humans wake up, smell the coffee, and take notice when God follows through on his promises — whether they were blessings, curses, or simply undeserved covenants and grants.
God wastes nothing. He uses his power, wisdom, sovereignty, his creation, and even the intellect and yearning of his created beings so that we realize our hunger and need of him and come to him, trusting him fully and clinging to him I believe this is his greatest delight.
Snake handler? Are you coming on to me Sobek?
The Gospels are not historically accurate, and in some cases demonstrably inaccurate
Example/cite please? It better be something good though because you and I both know that the Gospels were not written as historical documents.
And what the Gospels attribute to him are word and actions not compatible with being the Messiah.
In your (and, in fairness, the Sanhedrin’s) view because you all chose not to believe your own prophets. You wanted a political Messiah but instead you got the Messiah that God wanted to give us.
Most of the prophecies which are cited in the New Testament are either not actual prophecies, or have been interpreted in a way which distorts their true meaning.
Again, an example or a cite would be in order here.
Most of the core beliefs of Christianity–the Trinity, the birth of Jesus, the Atonement–contradict clear teachings in the Torah.
Are you speaking of the Mishnah? Because if you’re talking about the first five books of what I call the Old Testament then I would have to say you are full of beans.
>>Sure we can take credit for the 8 hotdogs in a pack vs 10 hotdog buns
I knew it!
Ultimately, the messianic claims of Jesus hang on the resurrection. Every other argument is trivial. If you doubt the eyewitness accounts of the resurrection, then the whole of the Christian religion is a massive fraud, beginning with the rapid planning of a covert theft of His corpse from a guarded and sealed tomb, a theft which the Romans had anticipated and attempted to prevent.
Note that the Gospel writers, in addition to their own testimony, reference the fact that there were scores of witnesses other than the apostles who saw Jesus after the resurrection, and who no doubt talked about it to their families and others. In the first century A.D., anyone could check this out. So the fraud must have been both hastily organized and huge in it’s scope. It’s hard to imagine how the apostles could think that they could get away with this scheme, given the intensity of the opposition to the new cult. And yet, so far as I know, there is no surviving record of any attempt to expose the fraud, which should have been pretty easy given the fantastic nature of the claim that Jesus had risen.
It’s also hard to imagine the apostles’ motive for their blatant and easily exposed lies, given that they all had difficult and financially unrewarding careers, ending with execution. They must have all been crazy.
Or they were not, in which case the fact of the resurrection sorta trumps any quibbling about who Jesus was and how you prove yourself as the Messiah. That fact demands that we take His claims at face value. Otherwise, we’re crazy.
Sure we can take credit for the 8 hotdogs in a pack vs 10 hotdog buns
Finally! Something I’m expert enough to comment on: It’s 8 BUNS and 10 DOGS! NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!!!
PWN3D!!!!!
Kishnevi said: “But one quick example: healing on the Sabbath. The true Torah position …”
All I wanted was at least one example, so I could get an idea of where you’re coming from. With respect to healing on the Sabbath, I can’t do any better than Jesus’ own words on the subject: “Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?” (Luke 6:9).
According to Luke and Mark, the Jewish doctors had no answer to that question (other than conspiracy to commit murder, which is not much of an answer at all). You reference “the true Torah position,” but the Torah does not specifically say “thou shalt not heal the sick on the sabbath.” With that in mind, can you explain for me how you have determined the “true Torah position” on the matter?
Pupster, that depends. You into it?
Kishnevi said: “Actually, Jesus’ teachings can be divided into two categories: teachings also found among the teachings of the Pharisees, and teachings unique to Jesus which often violate the teachings of the Torah, if he actually said them.”
That sentence made me laugh out loud, but for reasons too complex to get into here. Not at you, though, rest assured. At someone else, who once made a dumb argument.
I’m uncomfortable designating Pupster “our snake handler.”
“And yet, so far as I know, there is no surviving record of any attempt to expose the fraud…”
Celsus gave it a shot. Origen ripped him a new one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsus
#137
I think it was me who said: “Jesus’ teachings can be divided into two categories: teachings also found in the Lutheran Book of Concord, and teachings which are incorrect interpretations of Scripture by confused people like Brewfan.”
As regards Jesus and the Sabbath, He told the Pharisees, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. Take that biznatches!”
Ok, I added the last part, but Jesus really didn’t have time for people who would declare Corban so they wouldn’t have to help his parent.
his = their in the ancient Hebrew
It’s 8 BUNS and 10 DOGS! NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!!! Maybe Dave doesn’t do the shopping for fear his freshly paraffin-wax hand treatment would get ruined.
Michael, I think you hit the nail on the head, Lover!
The fact that no one could come up with Jesus’ body after the events of the day after the Sabbath, which we call Easter, is key.
According to Matthew’s account, the Roman guards experienced the earthquake and saw the stone being rolled away and were scared to death. They knew they were in trouble and would face punishment for losing the body, maybe even death. So rather than go to their superiors, they went to the Jewish leaders who helped them fabricate the facts AND paid them gobs of money to spread it.
They told everyone that while they were sleeping the disciples came and stole the body. Huh? If they were sleeping, how did they know that it was the disciples who did this? And if this were true, how come no one went after the disciples to seek out the body and show them to be liars and frauds? And what could these simple folks have done with the body? Matthew wrote his account about 30 years after the resurrection claiming that the fabricated lie of the guards was still spreading among the Jews.
What a shame that such a stupid bit of bad logic has caused so many to be lost.
Whatever. It’s a Jew conspiracy. Robert probably used the Jew Rays™ to cloud my mind.
*reads thread*
See, this is why we can’t get any Jewish commenters to stick around here.
Of course, I started this argument, so I guess it is my fault. But I stand by my position that Jews would probably see a statement like “Isaiah really belongs in the New Testament” as an attempt to co-opt their religious texts.
I also stand by the fact that at HEB (a Texas grocery chain), you can get delicious Texas Heritage hot dogs in 8-packs, AND they’re better than Hebrew National.
Furthermore, I stand by the fact that Shamus’s wavatars are teh awesome.
“See, this is why we can’t get any Jewish commenters to stick around here.”
What are you talking about? Pupster’s been around forever.
My daughter-in-law is Jewish, does that count?
Get her to start commenting here.
Sobek–you asked a fair question.
Real briefly, “the true Torah” position was determined by studying what the Torah says. Most of this study was done by the Pharisees and the rabbis who came after them.
“These are my laws by which you shall live” it says in one place. From which we understand that if observing a commandment endangers a life, we do not observe the commandment (unless it’s a case of being asked to commit adultery, incest or murder).
As for healing on the Sabbath: healing is considered one of the categories of work (–creative activity) forbidden on the Sabbath. Therefore under normal circumstances healing is forbidden on the Sabbath. But if a life may be in danger, saving the life takes precedence, per the argument above.
And now, the kicker.
That is the answer the Pharisees would have given Jesus. They would not have stayed silent. Even if they were fairly dumb Pharisees, they would have known the answer. So, for that matter, would have Jesus and everyone at the scene. So either the incident never took place or Mark and Luke purposely suppressed the answer of the Pharisees. It’s possible that the actual opponents were Sadducees–the incident makes more sense that way. In any case, what we have here is an episode in the Gospels which is definitely inaccurate. Either it did not take place, or it involved Sadducees and not Pharisees, or the actual response of the Pharisees was edited out and replaced with the non answer now found in the text.
Furthermore, assuming the incident did take place and Jesus said what he is reported to have said–the first part, about the Sabbath being made for man, has, I’m pretty sure, counterparts in Rabbinic teaching, although the precise wording and places where they can be found have slipped out of my memory. The second part, about Son of Man being Lord of the Sabbath, is from the Jewish POV, nonsensical, and certainly not in adherence to the Torah. Jesus is claiming to be an authority greater than the Torah, and given the centrality of the Torah to Judaism, that amounts to a total rejection of Judaism.
As for 143–please remember that the entire case for the Resurrection rests on the credibility of the Gospels. If you don’t think the Gospels are credible, then you have no reason to believe in the Resurrection.
“Sobek–you asked a fair question.”
Thanks. I’ve been on the receiving end of unfair questions, and I try not to return the favor (with varying degrees of success).
I want to re-read your comment and digest it before moving on, but as I do so can you expand a bit on this:
“As for healing on the Sabbath: healing is considered one of the categories of work (–creative activity) forbidden on the Sabbath.”
What is the source for that determination? The Torah, or something else?
Also, and I promise this question is not a prelude to an argumentum ad hominem, what is your education background with respect to Jewish religion and tradition? Any special training or degrees, or just personal study? (For me, it’s the latter)
Jesus is claiming to be an authority greater than the Torah
Correction: Jesus is claiming to be God, incarnate. Definitely an authority greater than the Torah.
As for 143–please remember that the entire case for the Resurrection rests on the credibility of the Gospels.
Which is pretty strong. As a contrast, consiser your own arguments against the Gospel accounts; you make up conversations that took place between Jesus and His contemporaries and then ask us to believe you over the eye witness accounts of the conversations.
You didn’t answer my question about what you mean by ‘Torah’ kish.
Brew has it right. (Yes, it hurts to say that about a Calvinist heretic.)
Jesus is claiming to be an authority greater than the Torah . . .
Indeed he did.
and given the centrality of the Torah to Judaism, that amounts to a total rejection of Judaism.
More precisely, it represents a displacement of the old sacrificial system with a new and permanent sacrifice, and the completion of Judaism with a new covenant, which is described eloquently in the book of Hebrews. Paul, a Pharisee himself, makes clear in Romans that the status of the Jews is special and inviolate, but also clearly affirms that the path to salvation remains rooted in faith since the time of Abraham, and that a new faith has emerged. Paul’s comments about the “remnant of Israel” that becomes the vanguard of the “new Israel” are unmistakably clear. Paul himself was extremely deferential to the church in Jerusalem. For example, he made a point of raising money for its relatively impoverished members.
But, Kishnevi, your point is well taken. Jesus was claiming that traditional Judaism had become obsolete as God continued the plan of salvation that began with the Chosen People, and extended this plan to the ends of the earth. As Isaiah prophesied — He would extend His dominion to all nations, who will be united around the New Jerusalem and dwell together in Zion at the Day of the Lord.
Jesus is clearly not the messiah for those who believe that traditional Judaism can survive intact after His resurrection.
shit, we’re gonna get hammered again.
I blame the Jews.
shit, we’re gonna get hammered again.
Do you mean that Obama is going to win? And we will end up with a liberal SCOTUS majority?
If so, I will blame the Jews for that also.
Thanks for the conversation Robert, kish. Very interesting and you all are welcome to hang out here anytime. We have many different people of many different faiths that frequent this commenting site and its one of the things that make it a fun place to be.
Except for Dave and Michael, of course, but we all have our crosses to bear. So to speak.
shit, we’re gonna get hammered again.
Maybe you meant that the Spurs are going to get hammered by New Orleans in the third quarter again, like last night, for the third time in the series. I bet the Jews are behind that also.
nope. I mean we got another 50000 foot top storm on our asses again.
I assumed Dave was referring to the imminent consumption of lots and lots and lots of alcohol (invented by the Jews, btw).
I wish. Kinda exciting here right now. No sirens yet.
Take care, Dave.
I’m praying that you all stay safe.
Sobek–the “source of that determination” is the Torah, with the rules of interpretation worked out by the rabbis (=Pharisees), in a line of teacher/students that started with Moses and went through the Prophets, and then through Ezra to the earliest generations of the Rabbis. In this particular instance, the rules would have already been known to Jesus and the Pharisees. The only real objection the Pharisees would have had is that the healing in question could have easily been postponed until after the Sabbath.
Which is (regarding Brewfan in 151) why the incident is not historical. If it took place, it wouldn’t have taken place the way the Gospels say it did. Pharisees would not have acted and spoken the way the Gospels say they did (or more precisely, remained silent the way the Gospels say they did.). The Gospel account is inaccurate. And that’s not the only place it was inaccurate. The accounts of the trial of Jesus, for instance, are full of inaccuracies, beginning with the fact that the Sanhedrin would not have have met at the time the Gospels claim they did.
The only reason to say that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts is if you assume the Gospels are historically accurate. There’s no outside evidence to back them up that does not come from later Christian sources, and there’s several points on which they contradict outside sources. In order to believe the Gospels on any point, you have to already believe the Gospels. Hence, to tell a non believer that the Gospels are evidence of something is a total nonstarter of an argument.
Back to Sobek–this is all just personal study since I was a brat. Including, I might add, side trips into Catholicism and Thelema.
Sobek, actually beer was an Egyptian drink.
Not sure who, other than Noah, gets the credit for wine.
Myself, I prefer the reason God invented Scotland–whiskey.
Dave, stay safe.
are you kidding? I’m hunkered down.
Looks kinda ugly, Dave. Hold tight. We are in for some thunderstorms tonight and tomorrow, too, but ours don’t look to be much heavier than the usual summer storms.
Anybody read Holy Blood, Holy Grail ?
I’m clenched tighter than compos on a soccer field.
actually, this line just passed, another one is an hour out.
Damn this has been one year for spring t-storms in Texas.
I blame the Jews.
Sobek, actually beer was an Egyptian drink.
Sumerian, wasn’t it?
Anybody read Holy Blood, Holy Grail ?
Oh yeah – I’ve still got a copy. And The Messianic Legacy.
And good luck, Dave.
no sirens. yeehaw!
“…the ‘source of that determination’ is the Torah…”
Where?
We haven’t had much more than usual on the coast…I guess Central Texas has all the luck this year.
lightning illuminates room, followed by hideous crash of thunder
Ok, ok, I take it back! Hebrew National hot dogs are better!
heh. I think ya ok kid, it’s moving northeast.
I’m just a lightweight here (well, in religion), but why did Jesus never marry? Or did he?
I’m sure our theologians on staff have answers, Lipstick, but as for myself, being a thirty-something bachelor, I’d say that the Romans didn’t really give him enough time, anyhow; I think Jesus was about thirty when they killed him.
That’s kind of the point, Sandy. I read that it was almost unheard of in that time and place for a man to reach that age without being married.
Eh. I am well aware with the genre of literature, Lipstick. I have not read it, but I could critique that genre of literature if you’d like. (This intersects one of the my favorite areas, religion, as well as an interest of mine, Freemasonry.)
As far as Jesus being married, we have no definitive proof that He was. In any case, we won’t know for sure because of the ideological and theological stakes in this issue. But suffice it to say that very many royal houses, particularly of Europe, faked their family histories to show they were descended from Jesus, with each newly ruling house expected to create a family history tracing their history back to Jesus as part of some sort of divine mandate or to justify the elevation of their bloodline. But most people in the know knew that these were complete fabrications.
That reminds me. When I lived in Italy, the Americans all thought it was strange that Italian men live with their parents until they marry, regardless of how old they get. One Italian lady responded, “Jesus lived with his mother until he was thirty-three, and he was perfect.”
Hard to argue with that.
Lipstick, the Bible doesn’t say he did or didn’t. It’s silent on the subject, so we can only speculate. The Gospel of Philip (discovered with the Nag Hammadi library) says Jesus was married, for whatever that’s worth (i.e. not much). I once read someone arguing that Jesus must have been married because otherwise the Rabbis would have asked him “how can you presume to teach us if you aren’t even married?” But again, that’s an argument from silence; if the evangelists didn’t mention his marriage, then they could have also failed to mention rabbis asking why he wasn’t married.
Kishnevi, in case it hasn’t been clear in the time you’ve spent here, we like to blame a lot of stuff on the Jews. Frequently while spelling it “Joooooooooos!”
Let me back up a little with my questions. What do you believe about the Torah? Is it the Word of God? In what sense? Is every single letter perfectly preserved from the time of composition? Or just the general ideas? Is the text fallible?
Thanks Musli and Sobek.
Sobek, how did you come to live in Italy? And where?
A number of Gnostics believed Jesus was married. (The recent Da Vinci Code fad of a married Jesus, His wife being the sacred feminine or whatnot, is a rip-off of Gnostic heresies.) One of the consequences of Jesus having a wife would have been a perversion of the Gospel which strayed towards the false paganism of the day, which believed in fertility goddesses, temple prostitution, and other forms of idolatry and perversion. It’s as if people can’t believe Jesus had a wife without then seeking to worship her.
(Even within normative Christianity today, we see this developing in the fringe forms of Marialotry, which the Vatican rightfully proclaims as heresy. People going off and deifying Mary as a member of the Trinity, and some even going so far as proclaiming her as God if not higher than God!)
I don’t believe there’s anything wrong in Jesus having been married.
But then we shouldn’t be too surprised. The Essenes, who existed at the same time Jesus did, believed strongly in celibacy. Some of their members, those that lived with the rest of the Jews, married and had families, while the purer folk, living off in the desert in virtual communes, eschewed all sexuality. And so while the Essenes harped on constantly about the Teacher of Righteousness, there’s nothing about him being married. Same with the stuff about the Messiah: nothing about him being married. Whether this means they assumed he’d be married — something not even requiring making explicit — or they believed he would not be married or that it didn’t matter either way: we don’t know.
And so Jesus having been unmarried would not have been too strange.
And, in any case, the vast majority of Jewish mention of Jesus occurred a long time after His resurrection, when it became apparent that His followers actually endured and would have to be reckoned with. Before that, there was little mention of Him at all by Jewish sources.
I have a post coming up on What Is Torah! I’m having so much fun!
I love Judaism.
Torah! Torah! Torah!!
Lipstick, I was a missionary, and I was scattered around the central part of the country: Chieti (near the Adriatic coast), Civitavecchia (north of Rome on the Tirrhenian Sea), Naples, and the island of Sardegna.
kishnevi — (I’ve been out tonight and needed time to catch up on this. Sorry this is late.) I am not convinced of your rationale about the behavior of the Pharisees. If I read you correctly you claim to see inaccuracies in the Gospel writings because Pharisees would behave differently with Jesus than what was recorded…(Were you looking at Luke 6:1-11?)… that they would not have stayed silent… that they would have known how to respond to Jesus and have answered him with their knowledge of the law.
That might have been the case if the motive of the Pharisees’ conversation with Jesus was to win an argument or discuss the law. But we know from Scriptures that this is not the case. They were threatened by Jesus’ popularity among the people. Jesus had the favor and attention of the people. People were following Jesus everywhere, sometimes to their own personal detriment… going hungry for days to hear what he had to say to them. The Pharisees were not popular, and during that time and place in history uprisings from the crowds were common. The Pharisees feared losing control over the people so they were motivated to plot ways to have Jesus killed. When their efforts on any particular time failed, they went away and continued to think up more ways. I think it is comical that they partnered with their theological “enemies” on at least one occasion when they did this.
I think you are correct in that these Pharisees knew the law very well and could discuss in detail all issues of the law. They were known for their knowledge of the law and this was threatening to regular folk. In fact Jesus called them “white-washed tombs” — meaning that they looked good on the outside but dead on the inside — not a very kind or “wise” thing to say to such powerful people — unless you figure they are going to kill you and this is the essence of God’s plan.
But as I read through the entire Gospel account, I begin to see that these conversations are not battles of who knows the law better, but are about their pursuit to catch Jesus doing or saying something that they can have him killed for.
[…] May 14, 2008 at 11:14 pm (Hebrew, Judaism, Religion, Uncategorized) Inspired by a question asked by BrewFan, I believe, in the IB thread: “Isaiah Manuscript On Display”. […]
Matthew 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.”
I was scattered around the central part of the country
Sounds painful. And unorganized.
I’m clenched tighter than compos on a soccer field.
Won’t do you any good brother.
I haven’t had any comments, but have been reading and enjoying this thread. Thanks to Robert and kishnevi for their thoughts, also.
Kishnevi, in case it hasn’t been clear in the time you’ve spent here, we like to blame a lot of stuff on the Jews. Frequently while spelling it “Joooooooooos!”
I think we’re losing sight of the real enemy here: the Scandis.
Oh yeah, I hate those fuckin reindeer humping snowbillies.
“Sounds painful.”
Yeah, well, I think we in America all too frequently underestimate just how much pasta they eat over there.
155 – Thanks Brewfan. I have been lurking around here for about a year. 🙂 This is one of my fav blogs. 🙂
#191 – I thought it was Scandi’s and brown people?
I have been lurking around here for about a year. 🙂 This is one of my fav blogs
Robert — it is great that you are commenting now. Thanks for that.
And thanks for being here and willing to let folks goof with you.
Robert, it’s good that we don’t have to explain our Core Beliefs: Batman, Thread Hijacking, Blog Pimping, Paraffin Waxing, Mrs. Peel’s Cherokee and missing leg, Bart, and Spudders.
…Cause it’s like trying to tell a stranger ’bout rock and roll.
But please tell me you’ve checked out The Innocent Bystanders Official Theme Song.
I nominate Robert as our Token Jew, to join the ranks of Tusher, Bart and Musli et al.
I also suggest that Pupster be stripped of his Shmata.
sobek–real briefly, refer to Muslihoon’s post.
Torah=what God revealed at Sinai through Moses. Literal text is what we have today in the Masoretic Text (safegaurded by divine watchfulness). Since God is literally the author of that text, there are an almost infinite levels of meaning, and even mispelled words, repetitions, and odd syntax are there on purpose. Part of God’s intention is to have us humans work out what He wants, by intensive study. What were some of the things that God means by such and such a verse, and how does it correlate with these other verses? To study the Torah is to encounter God intimately and personally. The literal text is the root system; the Oral Torah is the trunk and branches, and as a growing dynamic system, it continually puts forth new leaves and twigs and adapts to new circumstances. [Orthodox Judaism, in reaction to 19/20th century modernism, has seriously drawn back from the last clause.] But to study the writings of a modern rabbi is to study one of the twigs, and therefore to study a part of Torah.
But in relation to this thread, the laws of the Sabbath and so forth are determined by taking the text of the Torah and making logical deductions therefrom.
Thank you, and thanks to Muslihoon, too. I learned the distinction between written and oral Torah in college, but that’s getting further and further in the past, so Musli’s post was a helpful refresher. Also, it’s helpful to know how you, individually, understand Torah, because as has been noted, Judaism is a broad term encompassing a lot of different beliefs.
So is it safe to say you believe Jesus violated the Sabbath by healing, not based on any written text, but on the oral Torah?
“This is one of my fav blogs.”
If you’re calling it a blog, you haven’t been paying that close attention.
I’m sure Robert’s been paying attention; it’s been at least 10 months since Michael chastised me for calling this a blog.
Oh yeah, I hate those fuckin reindeer humping snowbillies.
Codhoppers
Iceback snow-wops.
Or my personal favorite (courtesty of Cuffy Meigs): Helchinkis.
So is it safe to say you believe Jesus violated the Sabbath by healing, not based on any written text, but on the oral Torah?
Yes and no.
Remember that there are things which occupy the boundary between the written and oral–things which are the logical results of the written text. Healing on the Sabbath is one of them.
Take Genesis 1:1. Nowhere does the Bible say, “Thou shalt believe that God created the universe”. But it would be very illogical for someone to claim that “I believe in the Bible, but I don’t believe God created the universe”, because if someone made such a statement our first reaction would probably be to wave Genesis 1:1 at them. The mandate to believe that God created the universe is not explicitly stated in the text, but it’s certainly a logical extenstion of the text.
There are portions of the Oral Law which are not so logically tied to the text, but the main principles of what can and can not be done on the Sabbath are pretty firmly linked to the explicit text.
And, to go back to a point I was trying to make in the original comment, it doesn’t matter whether this point was part of the Written or the Oral Law. The Messiah (in Jewis belief) would not violate either the Written or the Oral Torah. So whether you want to say Jesus violated the Written or Oral Law, it doesn’t matter. He violated the Torah and therefore can not have been the Messiah.
“…it doesn’t matter whether this point was part of the Written or the Oral Law.”
But I still want to know. I’m a lawyer, so when I’m arguing a point my mind is trained to always go to the source of a rule, so I can see (a) the specific terms of the rule, and (b) the context of the rule so I can assess its application.
The law of the Sabbath is, as you know, scattered around the written Torah, rather than all in one place. For example, Exodus 20:9-19, “Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not work…” And Num. 15:32 et seq., “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day…”
There is no verse that says “thou shalt not perform miracles on the sabbath,” or “thou shalt not heal on the sabbath.” I accept your principle that reason guides our understanding of the scriptures, so the next question is, do miracles constitute “work”? Does healing constitute “work”? In Num. 15:32, we see a clear-cut example of something that does: gathering sticks. Is healing so similar to gathering sticks that it should be treated the same way for purposes of following the law? I would say no: the man gathering sticks did so to enrich himself. Those that gathered manna on the sabbath did so to enrich themselves, so they could have more than their neighbors.
Jesus’ miracles were done to enrich others. They are therefore not comparable to gathering sticks, or gathering manna, and do not necessarily, as a matter of logic, violate the commandment to keep the sabbath holy.
I see nothing in either written text or in logic that requires a conclusion that healing is a violation of the sabbath. But I do not know the oral torah. I can’t quote it, I’ve never studied it, I can’t analogize from it. That’s why I asked you about your sources. I would like to go back to the source, so I can understand the reason for the rule, and therefore the application thereof.
Helchinkis
he he eh heh hee
Sobek–the most pertinent text is Genesis 2:1-3. It’s not a question of enriching oneself vs helping others: it’s whether the act is creative/destructive in nature,the type of thing that God does in creating and maintaining the universe. If the man was gathering wood to help an old blind neighbor, it would still have been a violation of the Sabbath.
As a basic guideline, the Rabbis took the construction of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, figures out all the activities that went into doing that, and came up with 39 basic categories of work that was forbidden on the Sabbath, further supplemented by one passage in Isaiah. Healing is forbidden on two grounds: the process of diagnosing and treating involves acts that are violations of the Sabbath (measuring is forbidden, and therefore measuring out a dose of medicine is forbidden if there is no danger to life), and healing itself is certainly a Divine activity (“(I wound and I heal; I kill and I make alive”–which, btw, is the verse which backs up the belief in resurrection–as the wound comes before the healing, so does the death come before the making alive.) Now, Jesus didn’t go around giving out medicines, but he certainly engaged in Healing as a Divine Activity.
Furthermore, all this is slightly off the point. The point doesn’t center on whether healing on the Sabbath in non emergency situations is a violation of the Torah. The point is that everyone around, including Jesus, would have accepted that it was a violation of the Torah–and since Jesus openly violated the Torah, the Jews who saw him do so would felt he was definitely not the Messiah.
This throws some further doubt on the actions of the Pharisees as reported by the Gospels as the sequel to this incident. They wouldn’t have had to sneak around and plot to have him killed. They could have simply arrested him and haled him before the Sanhedrin to be prosecuted as an open violator of the Sabbath, aggravated by his claim to have an authority that overrode the Torah. But they didn’t.
There is context to explain it–namely, that Jesus had emerged for a spokesman for the people known as am ha’eretz, who rejected both the Pharisees and Sadducees and were treated by the Pharisees as ignorant peasants hostile to the Torah. Presumably the Pharisees found themselves in the middle of a crowd of people who didn’t like them, and acted accordingly. But they still could have used the incident against Jesus later.
I hope that clarifies some of the above for you.
God is good.
God is aces.
Now let’s go and stuff our faces.
Amen.
Gathering sticks is neither a creative nor a destructive act. It is simple.
“Furthermore, all this is slightly off the point.”
I’d say we’re waaaaaay off the point. Not that I’m comlaining. I’m just not used to arguing religion with anyone who doesn’t come from a rather narrow sola scriptura point of view: that all arguments must be sourced to a specific verse or rational deductions therefrom, rejecting unwritten Jewish tradition as inherently unreliable (after all, there’s a reason we’re Christians and not Jews), and also accepting both Old and New Testaments as factual. In my discussion with you, I’ve had to mentally shift gears a bunch of times because my thinking has often been plain wrong — taking for granted that you and I share some of the same assumptions. We don’t, and I need more education on that point. So thanks for bearing with me.
“The point is that everyone around, including Jesus, would have accepted that it was a violation of the Torah…”
From my perspective, it is not common acceptance that makes a thing true or divine, but whether it comes from God. And the very purpose of Jesus performing his miracles on the sabbath was to demonstrate that the traditions (or at least some of them) were wrong.
More importantly, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, with authority greater than that of the prophets and Moses. Although you reject that premise, perhaps you will agree with me that God has power to interpret His own Torah more authoritatively than rabbis or even prophets? Even to abrogate the Torah as He sees fit? And if so, the key question is not whether Jesus violated the sabbath as understood by the pharisees, but whether he had the authority to do what he did, from whatever source.
Um, I’m not sure where that “it is simple” came from.
it is simple.
I think that’s Catholic. Tobit, 9:3
MEMO
From: Michael
To: Lutheran Millennium HQ™
Re: Reeducation Camp Curriculum
Dealing with the Jews may be more complicated than we thought. We have been assuming that they would be immediately receptive to Pure Lutheran Doctrine. I regretfully must report that this assumption may be incorrect.
Regardless of this difficulty, I am hereby requesting extra kosher rations for Robert and Kishnevi, who have been civil and engaging IB commenters. Please redirect their bacon ration to Russ.
Also, please give Sobek a chocolate bar during his internment for mentioning sola scriptura, which he surely recognizes as one of Luther’s “sola gratia, sola fides, sola scriptura”, even if he is a member of a goofy Utah cult.
Batman is Jewish.
the key question is not whether Jesus violated the sabbath as understood by the pharisees, but whether he had the authority to do what he did, from whatever source.
Well put, sir.
Bacon is life.
“Although you reject that premise, perhaps you will agree with me that God has power to interpret His own Torah more authoritatively than rabbis or even prophets?”
Actually, no. The Talmud records two instances in which He was (allegedly) overruled by rabbinical decisions. The most famous one is “the stove of Akhnai”.
http://cache.search.yahoo-ht2.akadns.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=stove+of+Akhnai&fr=moz2&u=lawreview.kentlaw.edu/articles/79-3/Luban.pdf&w=stove+stoves+akhnai&d=BNRnIjWxQlyF&icp=1&.intl=us
Unfortunately it leaves out the epilogue: a century later a rabbi encounters Elijah the prophet and asks what God actually thought about that little episode. Elijah’s response was that He was quite happy, exclaiming with joy “My children have defeated me!”
(The link is also available as a PDF if you prefer.)
Essentially, Judaism believes that God gave, at the time He gave the Torah, the duty and power to implement the laws of the Torah, the halacha, including the power to decide what those laws were and how they were to be put into practice. It’s like an employer ratifying in advance whatever decisions his employee will make while he is absent. So, at least in some senses, God is not the final word on the meaning of Scripture. (This idea results from the verse of the Torah that directs us to take whatever questions we have about the implementation of the Torah to whatever judges are in authority in our time, and to accept their decision as final, whatever it is. The questions are not taken to a divine oracle, but to a group of humans who exercise their full faculties in deciding what the law should be.)
Nor could He abrogate the Torah. More precisely, He could, but one of the immediate results would be the complete dissolution of the Universe into nothingness. That idea results from the Jewish view of the Torah–in the Torah we find God and God finds us. It’s how God relates to the universe, the interface so to speak, and the blueprint He used to create it.
I agree with your identification of the “key question”. The answer that JJews give, both now and in Jesus’ time, is that no one has that authority–Jesus nor anyone else. And that’s why Christianity is a different religion from Judaism.
And that’s why Christianity is a different religion from Judaism.
Not really. Christianity is quite familiar with the notion that God creates covenant relationships by which He is bound, and to which He is eternally faithful. That’s why Lutherans and many other Christians honor the Abrahamic, Mosaic and Davidic covenants to this day.
He could breach these covenants, I suppose, but He will not, because the violation of His word would, as you said, result in the “dissolution of the Universe,” which is a product of His word in the first place. It’s important to us to observe God’s faithfulness to the Jews, because we are relying on a covenant also.
We’re just quibbling about the scope and term of those covenants, not the principle.
^Yup, in the Catholic Eucharistic Prayer I, the priest says the following:
Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchisedech.
And in the Praeconium Section of the Easter Vigil Exultet:
For Christ has ransomed us with his blood,
and paid for us the price of Adam’s sin to our eternal Father!
This is our passover feast,
when Christ, the true Lamb, is slain,
whose blood consecrates the homes of all believers.
This is the night
when first you saved our fathers:
you freed the people of Israel from their slavery
and led them dry-shod through the sea.
This is the night
when the pillar of fire destroyed the darkness of sin!
This is the night
when Christians everywhere,
washed clean of sin and freed from all defilement,
are restored to grace and grow together in holiness.
The parallels and continuations of Christ fulfilling the Covenants G-d made with the Ancient Ones is made.
Abraham, our father in faith
Yup.
If Abraham were alive today, I’ll bet he would enjoy a Lutheran tuna casserole.
It’s like an employer ratifying in advance whatever decisions his employee will make while he is absent.
I kinda thought this is where you were coming from. It always amazes me that the Chosen People don’t seem to ever quite catch on. You wanted a king and God told you through Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day-in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods-so they are doing to you also.”
To this day you refuse to believe God is your king. In your view He is just a partner to the rabbis. He has surrendered His sovereignty to the Torah. The Creator of the universe is not quite as smart as those wily Pharisees. Or, as Rabbi Kushner would lead us to believe, God is not quite strong enough.
Doesn’t it concern you that history has proven that when the Chosen People turn to God in faith they flourish and when they put their faith in judges and kings and rabbis they don’t?
I am mostly concerned about bacon.
Doesn’t it concern you that history has proven that when the Chosen People turn to God in faith they flourish and when they put their faith in judges and kings and rabbis they don’t?
Just so I’m clear, this applies to Christians as well. And that is the common denominator between us.
I am mostly concerned about bacon.
BACON now… I thought it was all about pie.
We’re just quibbling about the scope and term of those covenants, not the principle.
Ditto and Yeppers…
…and Abraham is welcome to my portion of Lutheran tuna casserole.
Essentially, Judaism believes that God gave, at the time He gave the Torah, the duty and power to implement the laws of the Torah, the halacha, including the power to decide what those laws were and how they were to be put into practice. It’s like an employer ratifying in advance whatever decisions his employee will make while he is absent. So, at least in some senses, God is not the final word on the meaning of Scripture.
Kishnevi. ^ This comment taken from #217 encapsulates our differences. The scope of control that is alleged to be given sinful human beings is bothersome and not credible to me. God must and will always remain the final word on the meaning of His Word in the written word, Scripture.
It seems clear to me that most of us human knuckleheads throughout history, even those trying to be obedient to God, have ways that we screw things up. And we can also see how God continues to set us straight — sometimes applying dire consequences. And God’s discipline, punishment, and wrath has not only been for His Chosen people, the Jews, but also for believing Gentiles and nonbelievers.
Oral tradition, interpretations, and commentaries, including the Talmud, are human attempts to “build a fence around the Law” and might include wise exhortation for a believer, because they attempt to help us apply and understand God’s Word and will for us. But from my perspective these must remain a secondary or tertiary resource. Certain elements of the traditions or customs may no longer apply. We Christians quibble about this stuff a lot. Grandma’s recipe for roast may have said to cut off the ends of the roast, but this was so that it would fit into her roasting pan.
I’m currently reading through the Old Testament and am reminded that over and over again God continued to speak personally to his people because even though they knew the law, they still did not always interpret or apply it God’s way. They allowed their own personal stuff to side-track them. When they got it wrong God chose to intervene and bring them back.
That employer might ratify an employee’s decisions ahead of time during an absence. But if the employer returns to find a real mess on his hands, that employee will still face discipline or termination.
To this day you refuse to believe God is your king. In your view He is just a partner to the rabbis.
On the contrary. The standard blessing format is “Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, Who commanded us/Who created/etc.” But the king is a constitutional monarch, not an autocrat. And the Torah is the Constitution.
And every single human being–created in His image– and not just the rabbis, is a partner with God; and the work to be partnered in is the maintaining and creating of the Universe. Christianity perceives a great gulf between man and God which is bridgeable only by God. Judaism does not see it, because in its eyes, God is present in every human, and therefore such a gulf can not exist. There is certainly sin, but there can not be Original Sin–or at least, if there is Original Sin, it is balanced out from the start by Original Virtue.
And I’m sure Abraham would have no problem with your tuna casserole. Tuna casserole, Lutheran or otherwise, is a perfectlykosher dish.
Christianity perceives a great gulf between man and God which is bridgeable only by God.
That is correct.
Judaism does not see it, because in its eyes, God is present in every human, and therefore such a gulf can not exist.
“For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls on Your name, who arouses himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden your face from us and have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.” Isaiah 64:6-7
Maybe you can tell me what has changed since Isaiah wrote this?
Nothing has changed, but you’re not paying close enough attention to the text. It says “Hidden”, not “withdrawn” or “taken away” or “absent”.
Hiddenness is apparent absence, not true absence. The gap may seem to be there, but in reality is not there. And if someone does arouse themselves to take hold of God, even the apparent absence vanishes. (Not to mention the obvious hyperbole of the verse. Are we to think that the prophet himself did not “call on God’s name and arouse himself to take hold of God”?)
All I know is I’ve managed to get an extra chocolate bar out of this thread, so this thread has been a resounding success.
MEMO
From: Michael
To: Lutheran Millennium HQ™
Re: Reeducation Camp Curriculum
Sobek is educable. Make that a Swiss chocolate bar.
Also, please arrange for Kishnevi to have regular rations of tuna casserole. Heck, there should be plenty of leftovers we can give him.